I would appreciate you making comments on the arguments raised. Perhaps it was somewhat immature on my part to insinuate certain things in the first part of my posting, but I don’t believe that’s reason enough to brush off the rest of my list of concerns.
Additionally, I never said you didn’t care. And I don’t exactly expect you to care about small alliances. You have your gameplay concerns, and I have mine. There’s some overlap, but dissonance in view of the approach
CCP doesnt give a rats butt about any play style other that PVP. All these changes over the last few years only help the PVP player. Always the instant gratification . Just get it over with @CCP_Aurora and make this the all PVP game you guys want it to be, then all the rest of us can go play something else. The amount of flip flopping around on all these changes really show you guys dont care about anything other than PVP and you also have no clue how to keep this game alive for all to enjoy.
Most playstyles tie back to PVP in some fashion or another William, that’s always been the case. Industrialists and miners feed the economy, which feeds PVP by giving materials for the warring and fights, as does PVE circle back into it as it also feeds the economy on isk and factional components.
And everyone, to some extent, is vulnerable.
So your argument that we can’t get our fleet members keen enough to go shoot structures, so we have to weaken into uselessness won the day
The person you replied to explained the mechanics around the issue of asset safety in system very well, they also explained the change that this made in the defence, something that I alluded to as well but not as eloquently.
It is not that you are too dumb to see this, I don’t think that at all. I think that you don’t want to see it because well, Simple Farmers.
I did say that you don’t care, I will stand by that feeling, you pretty much convinced me of that, but you are right, the question is whether CCP care, and I think they don’t care either. Still was worth a try to explain it and excuse the dig about not being able to push your fleet mates to shoot structures, but it was the experience I had and I am pretty sure that is why major bloc FC’s pushed for this abortion, so…
Asset safety means your stuff doesn’t die. If you have assets that you absolutely must have access to, don’t put them in a medium structure. There are two stations in Eugales. Otherwise, you have to expect that those assets are potentially going to get blown up. So you move your decision on whether to fight or evac to the shield timer.
You still have time to find friends to help, push your guys to get in fleet to defend it if they timer is good, or decide to let it go if the timer isn’t. There are plenty of options. And if it encourages you to upship to a more defensible structure, then you’ve got all three timers and a much better chance at fighting off a bigger group with a bigger structure.
Your argument seems largely based off “it’s hard to be a small group in EVE” and I agree with you 100%, but that’s always going to be the case in the current meta. I understand your point about morale as well, and there are plenty of ways to keep morale up while you’re losing. I know from experience.
I’m looking at your alliance killboard now, and you all have lost 5 structures since you were formed in 2016, the last two happening in August 2021. Do you honestly think this is going to be a serious issue for you guys?
I think it’s different in wormholes. It is much harder to get pilots there to defend on shields and much less certain what the attacker might bring on armor. Together, those two factors tend to shift the fights from shield to armor, from what I’ve seen, anyways. You were asking before how common it was to defend “when you know you’re going to get blobbed,” but you very rarely know if you’re going to get blobbed in WHs. I’m not an expert in it. I lived in wormholes for a long time. That’s what I did. And I’ve seen a couple other corps do the same. But a dedicated WH structure basher would have a better idea of how common that is than I do.
Anyways, appreciate your help wit this, Brisc.
Instant gratification:
Lots more I could have added, if you want some more give me a few minutes I need my morning coffee
To some degree? Yes I do, as it kinda directly tells me that, if I’m going to be trying to put anything back into low, I should expect the be seeing multi-dread drops more often to single out the shield, or major SB swarms(though SB swarms can be funny to fight), and then groups stacked up for their killmails with cynos at the ready.
The issue with larger structures is its a direct invitation to larger groups to stomp even harder, just with current mechanics largely intact.
Medium structures, I think, if they’re going to become this easy to remove, need to have their classification more defined, with more reason to be used than just ‘replaceable stage’, which Aurora alluded to in the OP being part of the intent of the mechanical decoupling. They should be making a more concerted effort to introduce class defining changes alongside this if they’re locked in on making it the way of things.
As for structure losses, it should be about six or seven in lowsec. And another five in high. Though the ones in highsec were eventually lost due to a mix of circumstances, largely IRL being an absolute bastard and keeping us not able to really field, as it were.
We did, also, at one point have a fortizar in low, which some of the older structure losses were connected to. It was, at the time, before the second round of anti-cap missile and other timer nerfs, if memory serves when it was still a 4 hour total jitter window. The fort was the only structure we were able to save, and only because frankly, we fought until we just couldn’t, which made us prickly enough to ignore for a while. Burned us out hard, unfortunately. Went from about 30-40 active in two timezones to about ten, in one timezone, and then we sold the fort as we just couldn’t form to defend it again if they came back because burnout’s an absolute ■■■■■. It was a good war, but it hurt, a lot.
Yeah… filaments and all the abyssal stuff was a mistake and would best serve Eve if it were eradicated today.
That being said, mining ships were really bad for a while, yes, but are in a better place now. But before that, things like the rorqual were way too strong, too. Wish the Procurer hadn’t been made weaker how it was, but the others are definitely better.
Also depends a bit on what you mean by ‘old days.’ WH travel has been around for quite a while, and blackops as well. Not saying Eve hasn’t moved more towards instant gratification/made easier. It has, look at all these abyssal and proving ground events and the 30th iteration of the NPE. But, some of these examples aren’t the best to support the case.
I can understand that for bigger nullsec groups fighting eachother this helps against the structure spam and indeed might generate more fights. However for smaller groups and mainly in wormhole space this will be a negative thing. Big groups in lowsec as snuff or Shadow cartel will have some solo dudes in supers dropping on structures for easy cores with the alt in a cyno ship incase the enemy does decide to bring something it will be swiftly dealt with.
As for Brisc, I aprecciate that you are active on the forums and always responding to these changes. However you are in a big nullsec group and astras are seen as something of little significance compared to what smaller groups think of them.
Which brings me to my main concern; that CSM mainly consists of nullsec members. I get that big alliances promote their members to vote for their candidates and nullsec has a big chunk of the players living in. But if CSM is actual player represention towards CCP it needs a diverse range of players from across all areas of space with conflicting interests for different opinions. Not the “I have once lived in wormhole space so I understand how they feel” but actual people who will get affected by upcoming changes
PS: I appreciate players who get into CSM and spend their free time but it should have some diversity and not 75% major nullsec blocs
Ive been playing since 2007, so I remember alot of changes by CCP to this game. They are the main protagonist in all these problems. Ill conceived changes, monetary play to wins (skill injectors) crazy changes ( like the Rorqual super miner ), but they never listen to the player base. They dont know how to handle the market changes they introduce with their crazy changes and how it affects the time and effort the players put into adapting. In my opinion its getting really sad and its accelerating. I dont really play alot anymore, RL has its commitments . These latest changes just further the feeling of dumping this and moving on. And no all you instant gratification folks you cant have my stuff go make, mine, buy or steal your own things.
I’m an '09 guy who used to be a nomadic mercenary, small/mid gang high SP PVPer, then moved out to the Initiative in Null for a few years. Stuff like that. I hear ya, and am not in too different a place myself.
I recently played two years in Syndicate. We usually formed for the armor timer even when we knew there was a blob coming in for several reasons. First it was the best chance to save the actual structure. Next it forced them to form which was vitally important because they didn’t live in the region and it meant tying them up away from home from other things many of them would rather be doing. It also added credibility to our willingness to put ships on the line if and when we could get external 3rd party help. If worse came to worst, we knew we’d still have time to evac our stuff and carry on while practicing partisan warfare against other structures they might have already destroyed and replaced with their own (mostly valuable moons). My experience is such play is pretty common in NPC-null and LS and how many persistant small groups operate and survive.
Eh, not really. Less lag on the trophy case grid in 1DQ than you get moving a 10-man gang through the arse-end of Solitude.
Define ‘most folks’, though, Brisc. How often do you go push in the structures of 200-400 pilot alliances in lowsec, for example, vs ‘we’re hitting guys in null’?
As for getting pushed off on the shield timer… shields don’t have a timer, and now, they won’t have a window to defend in. How fast can you get formed up to defend an astra? Can you get the attack notification, find an FC, form a fleet, and get there all within 5 minutes?
Because if you can’t, congrats, 5 guys just pushed it into what is effectively the hull timer: you lose, no tether to help w/getting your fleet out.
So if people already aren’t defending the timer, they’ll be even less likely to defend it now.
This has gone off the rails some what, but I have tried it out and have some actual feedback.
This testing was only done on medium structures.
My main feedback from testing is that, the shield increase would need to be increased further to compensate for the lack of damage cap now.
A single dreadnaught, the goal ship for the siege update can reinforce a Raitaru in 3 cycles (14 minutes) and an Astrahaus in 5 (22 minutes). This is obviously dependant on the fits and tactics.
[This bit is math only not tested
A cruise phoenix will take 30 minutes and 45 minutes for a Raitaru and Astrahaus respectively.
A zirnitra will take 5 minutes and 7 minutes for a Raitaru and Astrahaus respectively.]
The total amount of damage required to reinforce a structure in 5 minutes is 38,400 dps for a Raitaru and 57,600 for an Astrahaus.
With the changes to the single armour/hull timer and the reduction in hull, a Raitaru takes 24 minutes to kill, an Astrahaus 36 minutes.
For clearing out structure spam, this is a blessing because you can chew through dozens in one weekend.
But for structures being used and lived in, even by all by the largest of groups, the changes appear over tuned.
The reduction in reinforce time for the shield is nice, but I think the increase in shield should be made higher to compensate, currently we haven’t gotten to the level of a small pos tower without any hardening arrays fit. A small pos is 7% of the investment of an Astrahaus and its core.
The removal of the hull timer and the reduction in hull, combined with the very short reinforcement time, one of those have to go, having only 1 day to prepare and then only 24 minutes to lose a structure. Even with defenders that won’t be likely.
As i said earlier, if your intention is for small and medium groups to be forced into NPC stations, then the npc stations need to be adjusted to compensate. The amount of bonus and benefit from structures mean without one you are at a massive disadvantage. I am currently living in pochven, my industry makes profits, people living 2 jumps away using NPC stations, cant even build the stuff I am because it is a net loss. Refining amounts, instant clone switching, free repairs, teather, and just having a place to live.
The only reason more of these aren’t killed all time, is the inconvenience, which sucks but in eve stuff dies for giggles of the bigger fish, but how much more can the smaller groups get stamped on, update after update pushes more and more people into the biggest of the big.
Please, go back to the drawing board, there are solutions above to help the prevailing issues with structures without forcing people who don’t have 24 hour coverage with a minimum of 200 to be forced back into npc stations.
Link anchoring rights to an Ihub strategic upgrade,
A unique core, 1 per corp that gives the extra timer back (exploitable though)
Specialised equipment for caps to siege though damage cap (Keep highsec safer at least)
A new weak structure, 1 per system, extra long anchor time, must be destroyed before other structures can be attacked - could have 1 timer of its own, and does not stop shield reinforcement, but gives an advanced warning.
Hell even if we can do away with the super short reinforcement timer, meaning if you need friends or evac you actually have time to do it, and smaller groups don’t need to worry about having just 1 day off.
Post one battle report where you defended a medium structure on shield, either successfully or unsuccessfully.
One other thing I would note is that wormholers aren’t generally very big complainers on here. Take the nerf to the structure weapons announced a month ago. Those are actually fairly significant in wormholes, where you more often have structure fights small enough that the structure’s weapons are a deciding factor. That change makes it distinctly harder for a small corp to defend a structure in a wormhole. I didn’t see a single wormholer complain about that. A nerf with a similar impact on, say, gankers or miners or null bloc might have generated a massive outpouring of complaints. In fact, lots of groups who are less impacted by the change than wormholers are did complain a lot. Living in a wormhole is lucrative. The people who live there are pretty open to taking some nerf bat hits (although we’ve gotten a lot of hits by that bat in recent years). Many of the people who live there are veteran players who don’t necessarily mind new challenges.
So I think when you see tons of wormholers complaining about this one, that actually means something. The weapons nerf made it harder for a small corp to live in a wormhole, which we’re pretty much cool with. This one might well make it impossible for a small corp to live in a wormhole, which is why we’re seeing such an outpouring of complaining from the wormholers.
You think I pay attention to that? I have more pressing concerns in fleet than ‘what is our objective?’ 
If I had to think of a situation where I know the objective was a medium structure on a shield timer… probably the fighting in Thebeka… 3 years ago?
But you know, I can’t give you a battle report for successfully defending a fortizar, either. I don’t much care what we’re doing, or make special note of it, so it all just blends together into ‘yeah, another 100-150 fleets this month’.
Either way, how defensible the shields are now has no bearing on the fact that they’ll become even less defensible, and there will be no middle step—which is the step most groups defend in.
I am thinking a different way to slove this problem.
maybe the one timer update can came with more capable medium structure. first the reinforce window should decrease to 3 hours. And each type of medium strcture will have up to twice slot,pg&cpu. The result should have the effect that a small fleet like form by 10 battleships with implants can’t bully the single structure which have no other fleet help with no risk. At least give small group a reason to fight.
In the mean time for nullsec bloc they don’t need worry about a more powerful medium structure.