So can we get update on JF

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
61

Oh well that is a relief, it’s not healthy to get het up in this kind of heat.

The conversation seems to have veered from the mechanics to my reasons for playing the game the way I do. But I’ll bite.

Firstly, I didn’t choose the targets, so I don’t really know why we were killing hulks, when one of my alliance mates pings for BLOPs I leap in one and fleet up, I often have no idea what the target is until it’s in my overview, but I assume that these miners were mining for one of our lowsec enemies, we have a fair few, and thus gathering materiel for our ongoing conflict, and thus legitimate targets. You seem to be suggesting that because they are miners there should be invulnerable, which is bad, mad and just plain wrong.

As for assaulting their structures, it’s quite likely, given we are in lowsec, that they have no structures and live in NPC stations, which are unassailable, so that isn’t possible. Where it is possible I have been involved in many a structure bash, and made and responded to hundreds of timers, it’s fine as gameplay goes, but I’m glad it’s not the only way to PvP in new Eden.

I’m glad you’ve admitted that you want miners to be invulnerable in lowsec, and that war should be limited to frontline ships, with no-one allowed to attack production lines, it makes it much clearer as to the real reason you want to remove cynos, but I now strongly disagree with you as I don’t think people should be safe in lowsec.

62

Man, I have not said such things and I have admitted absolutely nothing, but whatever floats your boat.
To be honest I lost interest in the discussion after realizing you are in Shadow Cartel, which has the second worst reputation in Lowsec about being hotdrop blobbers, just rivaled by Snuff. You know your char is from 2011, mine is from 2009 so you might or might not realize by now that your group ended on a “not give content”-list of almost every Smallscale Piracy Lowsec group because you simply couldn’t fight decently without calling in the Caps every time you seemed to lose. And later the Titanbridge. And now the Blackops. :man_shrugging:

So, me trying to explain to you why hotdropping ruins the game for most parts of the playerbase is like trying to explain to a Meth addict why he is losing his teeth from doing what he is doing.

Have a nice day and enjoy that kind of gameplay as long as it lasts.

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63

This.

There’s no way a competent mining fleet can get caught by a roaming gang. At best one of the slower ships can get caught that way.

To advocate for the removal of cynos is to advocate for safe mining fleets as long as the miners pay attention to local chat.

And this is not something I agree is healthy for the game.

Miners just dock up if you cannot catch them before or while they warp with a trap.

At best you get a slow miner or the one with the industrial core, the rest of them would be invulnerable. And their station invulnerable too if they’re staging from an NPC station.

First you advocate for safe shuttles, now for safe miners. I never sought this behind you, Syzygium, I usually thought that even though we’re not always on one line at least we’re both in favour of EVE as a dangerous PvP game.

As someone who enjoys this game for the PvP dangers I face while playing I wouldn’t want my shuttles to be an invulnerable ship nor my mining fleets to be untouchable. I wouldn’t want my structures and my combat ships to be the only things vulnerable to PvP, this isn’t the game I’m playing.

I do think cynos can be more balanced, but asking for outright removal of a playstyle you dislike is not reasonable.

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64

There is also no way an equally competent mining fleet can get caught by a cyno. They just warp out the moment someone non-blue enters the local and you have absolutely 0 (zero) chance to quickly enough warp to them, open the cyno and bring your fleet trough. Even a lazy Exhumer (fleet)warps in ~10 seconds.

Look at his example, what did they get out of 40 Hulks and 1 Porpoise? The Porp which probably was in Indu mode. And all the rest did just dock. Send a roaming gang to that system and you would have forced them to dock a well, and as long as you leave at least one char behind, they won’t undock again.

Yeah thats because you totally lack real gang combat experience. Sorry to say it, but it’s simply obvious. The amount of some lazy miners caught by those BlackOps hotdroppers NEVER EVER UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES even remotely outweight the damage this mechanic deals to the general PvP environment.
That is what both of you simply can’t see. Gang roaming has become mostly pointless, except for either in Areas where you can’t open Cynos (hoho, who would have thought that…) like FW areas or with incredible smallship Hit&Run stuff like AFs or T3Ds that you won’t reasonably catch with a hotdrop. But the whole Roaming-Gang brawl-it-out style that offered a huge potential for players to a) have lots of fun and b) learn how face-to-face on-grid combat works even in newbo friendly ships like T1 BCs is completely dead. The sole existence and overly common abuse of it against small gangs over years is so poisenous to the spirit of the game that it deletes content en masse and has ruined a whole region ofs space: Lowsec, these days known as “Hotdropland™”.
While you complain about some totally unimportant miners that maybe able to run or not (which they also would have done if you had simply sent some ships the classic way). If your goal is to prevent them from mining, absolutely no Cyno mechanic is needed.

65

I think we’ve got a totally different idea of gameplay.

Why would I want miners to stay docked up?

I want to catch and destroy their ships.

And on the other side of the engagement I don’t mind docking up as miner. If one of them stays in system I just do something else for a while until they give up.

What exactly is your vision of ‘good gameplay’ when it comes to the interaction of miners and their hunters? That miners are invulnerable and that making miners dock up is considered how you counter miners? And that if you wish to hurt the miners you bash the structure they’re in?

I’d like mining ships to be vulnerable like they are now, thanks.

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66

Which you can’t with a Cyno, if they pay attention to local. Prove me otherwise with hard facts about warp distances, acceleration times, locking times, cyno-jump times. Show me a working fit with which yo can jump into any local, warp to a mining fleet and do significantly damage to it if they simply initiate warp around 2 seconds after you came into local. Please do it. Or stop repeating that nonsense.

Again that “yeah but I want to kill some miners” is totally insignificant compared to the poisonous effect that mechanic has on Gang Combat where people are actually commited and tackled when the cyno goes up and can’t just warp away, so they get totally obliterated and could just have thrown their ships into a shredder instead. Your narrow “miner hunter” view is so focused on one single niche purpose - and even a convenient one, miners don’t offer a challenge to fight I suppose - that you ignore the side effects to the whole environment. You argue like a guy that wants no speed limits in cities because there is this one special purpose where it would make sense to him to blast with a 200km/h trough a pedestrian zone.

67

And btw. if you really want to make Mining- or Ratting- Fleets vulnerable, there is an easy solution: Remove Local from Nullsec and significantly delay Local in LowSec. And significantly reduce mining boost efficiency without Indu Mode, buff it within Indu Mode so using it really makes a difference. Make “compression” a job again, taking several seconds and during that time even the Mining Ship doing it is immobile. Now we talk.

But I guess you don’t like it that dangerous? At least your alliance Leadership would surely say a big nono to such a level of “danger”. :smile:

68

I think the people in this battle report used a cyno:
https://zkillboard.com/related/30003621/202606212200/

69

Yes please.

However we already know what happened last time Blackout happened so it’s unlikely to be reimplemented.

But I can still ask to keep danger in the game even if this isn’t implemented again.

70

Anectodal Evidence don’t count for nothing. Besides this, neither a Brutix Navy nor a Broadsword can Cynojump. So they moved in the regular way or used a login-trap.

The targets could just be asleep, afk, disconnected, we’ll never know. Show me a fit that can enter Local, warp 5 AU, drop out of warp, open a cyno, get a fleet in and all that in under 10 seconds. Or stop spreading that myth that you need a Cyno to catch people who pay attention to local. Do it, please.

71

The Broadsword or the Deimos most likely was the log-in trap and had the cyno for the fleet to jump in once it landed.

Remember that these ships recently got the ability to light cynos and make excellent hunters of both supers and balled up mining fleets like these.

What those other non-covert ships did on the BR I do not know, I just clicked ‘more relevant kills’ which has some flaws as it can flag false-positives to be part of it. Could’ve been scouts at a gate.

A mining fleet is less likely to notice and all dock up when a single person enters local than whenever a full fleet does.

Why are you so intent on killing a playstyle I enjoy?

I’m not asking for wormholes to be removed either, am I?

72

So they could have easily logged out some more Broadswords and once logged in opening bubbles and placing HIC points. Then cynoing in the fleet and even with a considerable delay - which is all I am asking for - they’d made the same kills.

I am not, why are you twisting my intentions so permanently?

You have to accept one simple fact: Cyno warfare has been disproportionally, hilariously, game-breakingly buffed when the system-change animation shortened travel time between systems from 30-45sec down to 5-10sec. After that change, anyone and his dog begun using CapitalAlts on every occasion, then Titanbridges and now BlackOps.
All I ask is to revert this buff. By adding a ~30sec delay from opening the cyno to ships appearing on grid, at least for the big stuff. Means T3C, Cenotaphs, BOs and Capital Ships. Bombers and Recons can still come faster, they have much weaker combat abilities as a tradeoff.

And anyone telling me that “this wouldn’t work!!!” is provable wrong because it did work before the system change buff. And it worked well and balanced. And big fights are happening and doable, even with capitals in JSpace completely without cynos required. Yes, all those ships also can warp into battle. With all strings attached, options to delay them, drag them out of path, pin them down at a ping etc. etc. - that adds skill to the game. It at least transform those ships from a 1-hit-sledgehammer into a longsword or halbert that needs some piloting skill to perform well.

More isn’t what I ask.

  • Bombers ~5sec delay
  • Recons ~10sec delay
  • T3Cs, Cenos/BOs ~30sec delay
  • Capitals/Supercaps ~45sec delay

You can still catch any Industrial in Indu Mode, any Freighter tackled somewhere, any ratting Marauder, any Capital tackled while traveling or CRABing. You can still do Bomber-Action with Recon Support on rather low-firepower Mining Gangs or Bot-Ratter if you can tackle them.

But you cannot catch an active roaming gang in the midst of a fight with a Cyno and just kill them all. And thats all that is nessessary to make wide parts of the game viable for smallscale engagements again, without the constant threat of being cyno-executed by some bored large group that even thinks their Marshal-Fleet has anything to do with “High End PvP”…

I am absolutely sure you will be able to adapt and your actual gameplay skill will rise a lot.

EVE ONLINE CLASSIC on one side - PLEX INJECTOR and MULTIBOXING on the other
73

I don’t care about that specific scenario you encountered, I am talking about global trends and blackout would be much more significant. Don’t flatter yourself by thinking that I care about whether or not you bag some miners.

74

This seems to me like it will just result in more multiboxing in BLOPs fleets, as every pilot will need another tackle alt in a bomber or recon to jump through first and grab stuff.

Maybe that’s a good thing, but I don’t expect it will result in any increase in the number of small gangs roaming.

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75

It will, because if someone opens a Cyno on a Small Roaming Gang of like ~5-15 Cruisers or BCs and first send a couple of Bombers trough which are then all on their own initially, quite a few Bombers will probably be dead by the time the real firepower arrives. And if even a single Recon or two die before the RemoteReps of the T3Cs and/or BOs are on field, the dropped roaming gang has already won the ISK war.

Which will make that drop alone so costly and cover the Killboard in red, that those groups won’t go very often after a Handful of PvP ships any more. As said, the goal isn’t to make Hotdropping totally unviable, the goal is to make it uninteresting to jump on small combat gangs and bring Tank, Damps, Jammers, Weapondisruptors, Longrangetackle, RRs and Firepower all at the same time within a few seconds so those guys have not the slightest chance of fighting back or running. But you are right, Recons should have 15sec delay. :slight_smile:

76

I appreciate that all fleets in lowsec will become safer, such that I expect kills in lowsec to tail off sharply, but I don’t think there’s many players out there who are only prevented from roaming in lowsec in small gangs because of the fear of hotdropping.

Maybe you and all the other WH dwellers will come to lowsec, but WH will always be better ISK than lowsec so why would you?

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing, but as Pavlov’s House point out, it lies.

I don’t think the game moved on from small gangs of T1 BC and cruisers because of hotdropping. I think the players learned better tactics and moved on into better ships.

In short I don’t think your change will have the effects you desire, but it will prevent some of us from catching some prey.

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77

Most people here care for good fights and before hotdropping became a pest, Lowsec offered plenty of opportunity for good fights.

Then the big blobgroups basically turned Lowsec into Nullsec-Light by spanning cyno-umbrellas all over the place and hotdropping smaller crews first with Titanbridges (yeah I remember the times where small pirate gangs needed scouts to check which blobgroup had their Titan online and waiting at the POS) to find corridors to still get fights without being remote-executed…) and nowadays with BlackOps + Capital Escalation Potential.

Count on that, occasionally we would do that with a gangs of 10 to 50 probably. And if you can’t hotdrop and vastly outescalate us with a capital blob, you maybe get some interesting and challenging fights out of it. But beware, you might actually lose a fleet or two in the process.
Up to you if you are interested in skilled combat or not. For now it looks like you prefer the easy curbstomp scenario.

79

So any news in regards to high sec JF operations ? really tired of moving stuff in high sec areas 40-80 jump trips are not fun

80

If you’re tired of hauling, have you considered courier contracts?

81

what does this even mean?