So I made a new character. It was eye opening

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Tahiro

every motivation has the cause in something that has to do with oneself

and that may be as simple and genuine as a wish to do good. I am familiar with the thesis that helping others benefits one’s self, and even with the stranger notion that you cannot help anyone else without you yourself benefiting, even down to a molecular level with the release of endorphins and serotonin… Some would argue that people only help others because of selfish reasons, but that is quite a negative view that I do not share.

I have nothing to gain from the changes proposed by OP or you in terms of overall quality of the game. But if CCP makes the mistake of bringing the branches lower by luring new players into bigger, shinier target ships via skills and sp, I promise I will take my gratuitous advantage and start collecting that low hanging fruit. Not because I would be competing with them, but because I would be competing with you - and I can’t let you have that benefit all to yourself, can I. Neither you nor I will pay for that, but you know who will. It will have brought down the quality of the game for them.

So yet again, a warning against badly thought out changes. As people who care for the game it’s our duty to say “This would be a bad change because >reasons<. If you do go ahead with such changes, we will take advantage of your mistakes, in true EvE fashion”. It has happened before, it will undoubtedly happen again. Is that me lying about my motivation ? Nope, I’m being honest about picking more low hanging fruit.

@Tahiro

thats unfortunate, that your parents have not taught you more personal responsibility instead of gatekeeping

Au contraire, mon cher. They taught me to make reasoned decisions, instead of emotional or greedy ones, making me my own gate keeper, of sorts. I can recommend it.

Btw, my parents never played EvE, so they’re not part of the discussion, okay ?

@Tahiro

come up with a conclusion that suits your intention

Nope, in a discussion it’s customary to follow a logical process that ends with a firm conclusion. This discussion is not new, neither is my personal conclusion as no new elements were added to force a re-evalution of the position.

@Tahiro

at this point is trying to difame me.

Many would say that’s a closing argument after an already finished discussion. No new elements were brought up in the last 3 posts, except you pulling the killboard stats, criticizing my upbringing, questioning my performance in the game, etc. This wasn’t a discussion about me, but it was you who took it down that path.

So, thank you for the exchange.

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Tahiro

trying to difame me

*defame.

Who are you exactly?

[Kshal_Aideron]

I’m a few days late to the thread, but I’m here to tell you all of the shocking things a new pilot CAN do:

PVP: I have had a 1 hour old new player join my Newbro roam. It took a little time to find something she could fly effectively. That was one frig held together with duct tape and a prayer but by golly the pilot was able to lock things up, shoot them and even scram.

Now, one of the HUGE problems in regards to getting new players into PVP is finding the fleets. Public fleets via the NPSI community or Eve Rookies, well, it’s either word of mouth or being lucky enough to find a post somewhere that we’ve left a link. Or lucking into an active corp that welcomes complete, unskilled rookies into their pvp fleets.

High Sec Incursions: we regularly get players who are around 2 weeks old joining Eve Rookies for incursions. We’ve had players within 1-3 days joining, which is completely possible with wise usage of the 1 million sp, skilling spree points and event sp.

However, just like with PVP the problem isn’t being able to “do something”. It’s knowing about the thing to do and knowing how to allot sp to join the activity. If a player does find us but hasn’t skilled into a Praxis yet, we have them scout the incursion sites for us. They earn 5m per site completed and still get to be part of the fleet.

Mining: Once again, new players can do this straight out of the box. There’s even part of the NPE dedicated to mining. Can they moon mine right out of the box? No. But they can go burn down rocks and huff gas fairly early on in their career. It’s not going to be the most efficient way of mining, nor is solo mining going to earn a sufficient income, but they can do it. It’s just not the way someone who’s been playing forever does it and guess what? That’s OK.

On top of that, there are mining fleets a new miner can join straight out of the gate that will welcome ventures with open arms. There’s even fleets that will GIVE them the venture and teach them all about staying alive… if they could find who runs those fleets and when they run…

Combat Missions: once again, something they can do. Pretty straight out of the box. They’ll get enough isk to do lvl 3 missions in a week or two. No, it’s not the gold standard of blitzing lvl 4s in marauders or more bad arse battle ships but they can do it. It is a bit of a grind to get to lvl 4 SOE missions but if they find friends to do it with it lessons the monotony. But, once again they need to find a corp that does lvl 4 mission fleets or know when open groups schedule them.

And the same goes for abyssals, ratting, FOBs, wh play, etc and so on. Having to wait to skill into things isn’t a bad thing. Especially since there is SO MUCH TO DO in this game for a new player. The problem is letting them know what they can do, how to do it, and how to scale up.

The other problem is getting them involved with communities who do all of these things as fleets. Not that I’d know anything at all about this as a CEO of a public community aimed at newbros… but getting them into a fleet keeps them around a heck of a lot longer than if they’re throwing themselves at the solo {insert-insert-activity-here} wall.

[T_Elliot]

@El_Paccino

Kindly desist from employing DARVO. It will not go as it usually does for you. Thank you so much. (edit: this thread went south fast lolol)

o?

Are you claiming that I am in league with daleks now? As your last claim, it is not at all clear to me what you are getting at. It seems to me you are just trying to spin out of your statements with FUD. But maybe you do think that Davros will save you.

(Edited to add)
I had to google “DARVO”, never heard of that term before.
If I understand you @El_Paccino (which I am not 100% sure I do) you seem to be insulted that I assume that you personally support the thing that you advocate for. I saw nothing in your posts to indicate that you are playing the Devil’s advocate. But if you are, and I missed it, sorry, it is hard to recognized subtlety of voice in written text. If you have a logical riposte that will cause me to change my mind about the dangers of watering down the challenge of EvE, I am all ears.

It would help if you were more specific in your accusations.

[T_Elliot]

@Fifie_Brindacier

it seems like you want to And it looks like your latter has precedent. Is it a usual occurrence?
I personally am fine with the SP system as is. Maybe because I don’t care about competing and just play for fun and giggles… when the bugs allow.

Lol Fifie, I am not 100% sure what you are getting at, but if I understand you I have been bested by players younger than me, and destroyed ships piloted by players older than me. As old as this game is, and as easy as it is to buy skill injectors and implants, age of a character is just a very rough estimate of skill point numbers.

Playing for fun and giggles is the best attitude though, I will say.
I hope you have success at swatting the bugs that interfere.

[El_Paccino]

I am not claiming anything your actions and words however are. You’re really not gonna gain much here as I said the results you looking for simply are not here. Anyhoo I would rather go chat with more intelligent likeminded folk - you have a great day now - do not bother further - you simply gave yourself away once to many times.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Tahiro

more often a newbro has not the skills to fly the “right” ship for the encounter

Your cause is all hypothetical as you never give any actual examples. It’s the usual ’ surely this must be the way Eve is… ’ type fallacy we get here.

And yet I cited…somewhere above…how a noob can be in a high EHP, 350 DPS, Gnosis within days of starting Eve. It’s more than adequate for a lot of PvE and PvP…and my very first station bash for Wrecking Machine a year or so ago was in just such a Gnosis ( and I got the final blow out of 80 people ).

Sure, it was a pain waiting for skills to fly the Nightmare, T2 Apocalypse, Zealot, Drekavac, and so on…that I now fly. And I still have a month of training to fly a Leshak and even longer to fly a Paladin. But what you completely miss is that this waiting and delay is precisely what gives that sense of having ‘arrived’…when one does finally get there.

Why should all that long waiting and skilling be cheapened by you dumping 10m SP in the hands of every noob ? Why would I not want to ‘gate keep’ the advantage bought by all that time I have waited ?

[Fifie_Brindacier]

@T_Elliot

I hope you have success at swatting the bugs that interfere

I hope that CCP has success at swatting those bugs, too. I have to reinstall the whole thing and will see about getting the new client next time I’m home.

@T_Elliot

Lol Fifie, I am not 100% sure what you are getting at, but if I understand you I have been bested by players younger than me, and destroyed ships piloted by players older than me. As old as this game is, and as easy as it is to buy skill injectors and implants, age of a character is just a very rough estimate of skill point numbers

I agree. I was trying to contrast both your statements that seemed to contradict each other but now that you added this

@T_Elliot

As old as this game is, and as easy as it is to buy skill injectors and implants, age of a character is just a very rough estimate of skill point numbers

So knowing who the opponent is helps. Intel is precious.

[Tahiro]

@Altara_Zemara

Your cause is all hypothetical as you never give any actual examples. It’s the usual ’ surely this must be the way Eve is… ’ type fallacy we get here.

why should i give an example? you are certainly not interested to hear it, otherwise you would just have asked instead of your statement. besides that, its pretty much common knowledge that eve is very rock, paper, scissors like.

@Altara_Zemara

Sure, it was a pain waiting for skills to fly the Nightmare, T2 Apocalypse, Zealot, Drekavac, and so on…that I now fly. And I still have a month of training to fly a Leshak and even longer to fly a Paladin. But what you completely miss is that this waiting and delay is precisely what gives that sense of having ‘arrived’…when one does finally get there.

i have perfect skills but weapon spec 4 for all those ships and many more, but the skill system still doesnt feel rewarding to me, for the reasons i mentioned in my first, or second post in this thread.

@Altara_Zemara

Why should all that long waiting and skilling be cheapened by you dumping 10m SP in the hands of every noob ?

i never said that every newbro should get 10m sp, why are you asking me this?

@Altara_Zemara

Why would I not want to ‘gate keep’ the advantage bought by all that time I have waited ?

this shows exactly what kind of person you and most of the gatekeepers are.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Kezrai_Charzai

In fact I’d recommend that about 10-20 million SP be up for grabs by completing a series of different initiatives that takes players down a dozen or more career paths in EVE with progressive difficulty. Some of them requiring fleeting and teamwork and accomplishing corporate goals.

There is a point that you simply don’t get. In fact none of you ‘what about the noobs ?’ people do.

Why should those who have already grinded their way through a year or two of skills have to contend with some new fast track system for others to catch up ? Your proposal is basically cheapening the skills grind of many post-noob people a year or two into Eve.

I can see how people who have been in the game since the dinosaurs existed are actually so out of touch with the realities of noob-ness that really they are the last people who should be commenting on the subject.

[Aiko_Danuja]

I can’t wait to skill extract my new player welfare points.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Tahiro

why should i give an example?

Precisely because one person’s ‘common knowledge’, as you put it, is another person’s complete and utter balderdash. Way too many threads here are based on some form of ‘everyone knows…’ fallacy. We see it time and again in the anti ganker threads, for example…where people make all encompassing claims but cannot actually provide a single example to back up those claims.

[T_Elliot]

@Aiko_Danuja

I can’t wait to skill extract my new player welfare points.

@Aiko_Danuja Why is it that these ideas that are “for the new bros” are always things that seem to be tailor made to be exploited by vets?

[Altara_Zemara]

More to the point, why do all those who pretend to care so much about noobs never listen to all the post-noob people who are closer in time to the experience of being a noob ? From my perspective ( been in Eve 18 months ) there is nothing wrong at all with the skills system or skills point system. Yes, it is an exasperating grind…but it is supposed to be, and I would not have it any other way. The grind is made up for by the sense of having ‘made it’ when one does finally fly that Leshak or Paladin.

That is the thing all these ‘what about the noobs’ people miss.

In real life I climb mountains. I enjoy the challenge…the long slog to the top. I don’t get that same sense of achievement on mountains where there’s 500 people who have arrived at the summit via cable car.

[Tahiro]

@Altara_Zemara

Precisely because one person’s ‘common knowledge’, as you put it, is another person’s complete and utter balderdash. Way too many threads here are based on some form of ‘everyone knows…’ fallacy

did you read the convo i had with wadiest yong, where the quote actually comes from? he clearly understood what i meant, because he mentioned “picking” fights in that context. it should be pretty obvious for everyone with a basic understanding of the eve combat mechanics. though i might have overestimated the abillity from certain forum users in that regard, as you proof.

honestly, i dont think you would even understand it, if i explain it to you (maybe you would if i bring the rock, paper, scissors example, but thats not a valid example for you anyways i guess).

you act like others are making claims they cant proof, are talking utter balderdash, but you are the one who doesnt understand it and the harder you try, the more obvious it becomes.

[Io_Koval]

Gosh, can anyone translate what Tahiro is saying into 4 year old language for someone of my intellectually handicapped level? I am having an incredibly difficult time understanding his rigorous and fact-based logical arguments and they’re causing such a loud ruckus in the cavity between my ears I can barely remember that I need to breathe to live.

If only someone out there was as smart as him that could translate for folks like me who compete with sacks of rocks, maybe one day we could all understand how vast his intellect is and barely begin to understand 1% of his powerful idea, if we are ever so fortunate.

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Io_Koval

can anyone translate what Tahiro is saying

I quit reading after the first letter, because he failed to capitalize the start of a sentence (which indicates that everything which follows is garbage).

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Altara_Zemara

More to the point, why do all those who pretend to care so much about noobs never listen to all the post-noob people who are closer in time to the experience of being a noob ?

Because it doesn’t fit their narrative or agenda. It doesn’t even matter who says what or how. A real discussion is the exception rather than the rule. And, as exemplified in this thread, the intrepid advocates of “change for the betterment of noobdom” will start sidetracking and gaslighting, as soon as they meet some serious opposition with valid arguments that are not so easy to address. Or attack the person, not the argument.

You can shout out your appreciation for the skilling system in EvE (as I have done in the past), you can see why it is good the way it is, because you’ve found the balance as a real EvE player. Those who don’t see its value, or haven’t yet, will seek shortcuts and demand change. We used to say HTFU or GTFO, we’re not really expected or allowed to anymore, because >reasons<. But that is what it is, effort and patience are not fashionable these days.

P.S. wait until you make that long slog to the top of the jump drive skills mountain

[Altara_Zemara]

@Tahiro

did you read the convo i had with wadiest yong

Unfortunately yes…struggling to find some actual facts being presented.

[Tahiro]

@Altara_Zemara

struggling to find some actual facts being presented

you say there are no facts from me? you might be right, because it was mostly opinions, suggestions and the reason for it. like every single other post about the topic from all in here (not counting the strawmans with some sprinkled in unrelated “facts”, other side discusions and offtopic). that being said, what about you? where are your facts?

@Wadiest_Yong

Because it doesn’t fit their narrative or agenda. It doesn’t even matter who says what or how. A real discussion is the exception rather than the rule. And, as exemplified in this thread, the intrepid advocates of “change for the betterment of noobdom” will start sidetracking and gaslighting, as soon as they meet some serious opposition with valid arguments that are not so easy to address. Or attack the person, not the argument.

Because it doesn’t fit their narrative or agenda. It doesn’t even matter who says what or how. A real discussion is the exception rather than the rule. And, as exemplified in this thread, the intrepid advocates of “gatekeeping” will start sidetracking and gaslighting, as soon as they meet some serious opposition with valid arguments that are not so easy to address. Or attack the person, not the argument.

see what i did there

its always the same wath some guys in this forums do, trying to discredit with missinterpreted or lied things, strawmans, hyperbole, sarcasm, trying to make fun of the others, pointing out things from others you do as well, teaming up with others to support your point, selling your rethoric as facts and so on…

thankfully the forum and r/eve is not representative for most eve nerds, but if thats what you meant with “the real eve players” its time for more changes, so those … finally go away