But you do too. This whole thread you’ve been whining about the whiners as if that’s going to make them log off and never return.
You enjoy these funny threads a lot and I can’t blame you, it’s hilarious. 
@OT_Smithers
On topic. New players can do a lot, maybe too much. The SP is the way it works until the devs think of something better, if there is even something better. Whining about it won’t change a thing.
Indeed, for the majority of people once they hit 40 mil SP they ran out of “needs” a while ago, they’re already deep into the realm of “wants” and not far of “nice to haves” and in the near future they’re down to “don’t care, just put in something that takes long to train so I don’t have to think about it”.
Indeed they can…but at the end of the day it is still going to take my new Omega char a year to ‘catch up’ with Altara. And to me that is just fine. Sure the grind is a pain in the proverbial, but its not like nobody else has to go through it too. And if my noob char could suddenly catch up via some CCP change…then you’d have the inverse lament of Altara feeling cheated out of all the grind that she did. And that is why the system is just fine as it is.
I read they think about changing it. I hope it will be an improvement. I’m more concerned about understanding all ramifications of that than interested in arguing with non-devs.
Sorry Wadiest, but it is a lie, and a great big fat one too.
You’ve made posts that I’d engrave in gold and pin on CCP’s front door if I could, but you do keep repeating this utter falsehood.
Using the Caracal example alone, there are well over 40 relevant skills that affect it’s performance. Training 10 of those skills to level 1 in a couple days gets you in the ship. But the guy who’s spent 2 weeks training those skills and a dozen more to level 2 has a significant advantage over you.
Then the guy who’s spent 3 months training those 22 skills plus another dozen up to level 3 or 4 has an even bigger advantage over “the new guy”. And the guy who spends 9 months training those 34 skills plus yet another dozen has a very significant advantage over all the younger ones.
Every level of every one of those skills confers a 2, 3, 4 or 5% advantage in some relevant aspect of performance. And the same thing applies to trading, standings gain, ISK generation and everything else in EVE. That’s the whole point of the skill system.
Can a new player slowly make his way past all the roadblocks and barriers and vet competition? Sure, pretty much everyone who sticks with the game has managed the slow crawl through the minefields. But of course that ignores the literally millions of potential players who saw the minefield for what it was, and walked away.
Your point only becomes valid after about 18 months of Omega training - at which point a new player has accumulated enough SP to become truly competitive in a couple of different areas of the game.
My point is simply that in today’s gaming environment, fewer and fewer players are willing to pay cash for that long simply in order to become reasonably competitive.
A newer player can study harder, watch more videos, practice more to get better and improve on “player” skills if they have a mind to - but the only way to close the relative “SP gap” is to throw money at the game and/or wait for months and months.
There’s no reason not to give players a method to partly close a small section of that gap through actively participating in various challenges and playstyles in the game.
CCP has recognized this even before the “vets” did (for once) and has slowly and awkwardly been adding various “SP gain” mechanics to the game for years. I’m simply proposing they do a better job of it.
You are correct - vets saying that having hundreds of millions more SP than new players “isn’t that big of an advantage” is indeed utter nonsense.
Thanks for supporting Truth, Justice, and the American way!
Right, so 2 years of Omega training to become reasonably competent in one subsection of the game. But hey, that’s not much of a gap at all, right?
@Kezrai_Charzai You’re doing a much better job than I can at driving the point home.
I’m just going to like your posts and enjoy the show.
Not a high bar, that.
Sorry, it’s my fault. Rather than say “thanks for the correction” and go on a fact-finding mission and reach conclusions from where the evidence takes him, OT has disappeared after his worldview was shattered when presented with objective facts. He was an incredibly avid participant right up until that exact reply.
Everyone in the cabal agreed we were going to leave him alone in his alchemical lab to conjure what will surely be a new argument to fit the desired predetermined conclusion.
At least the sockpuppets agree with each other.
At some point I just don’t have the energy for these dudes anymore, so I’m going to devote some of my forum time to get to the bottom of its biggest mystery. What is the deal with @Iceacid_Frostpacker and @Aiko_Danuja ? He was a miner, but then isn’t? Maybe got ganked? Gave a Nestor to @Vinnegar_Douche to give to Aiko for some reason? Someone for the love of all that’s holy please make me a cheat sheet for what is happening. It pops up in every thread about anything.
Thank you for your words of the more elegant kind. There is indeed no reason to disagree in a belligerent fashion. And we’ve never done that in the past.
The differences between players’ choices will be more visible the earlier on their timeline one looks. However, now you seem to be writing about a situation where they haven’t even had time to chose a direction at all…
EDIT: I started writing out examples, disagreeing with your 18-month time point, but that doesn’t belong here. I’d rather cut straight to the core of what you wrote. And it’s not a pleasant situation. Rather than nitpick your sentences apart, just a general commentary:
If I’m not willing to pay for this game, make it my hobby and invest time in it, play it the way it is, I will not buy the product. Neither this game, or math, or chemistry, or medieval german literature becomes any easier or more appealing when I’m not willing to invest, and neither will I become good at it. Ever.
Demanding that the game changes ? For whom ? Those impatient people who are not willing to invest time and patience in it ? The same people who think that every time there is a difference in a number they don’t even fully understand they are at a perpetual disadvantage ? The same people who will most likely not be around after a year because despite all the benefits that were wrung and extorted out of ccp they are still no good because they never understood it ? The only way to close the relative “SP gap” is to stop worrying about it and get on with things, learn to pick the situations, and have fun without acting the bookkeeper on minutiae. EvE is as much a mindset as it is about space ships, that’s my point.
We’ve always told people “in EvE there are no shortcuts”. Well, to be an EvE Player, there are no shortcuts either. It’s never been a big game, it never will be a big game, it simply is not such a game. You can get your virtual PhD in online gaming right here, lol. And others can get real PhD’s by studying what we players and our gamedevs are doing that make it such a long lived game., lol.
That’s where you lose me: if the vets haven’t seen it first, it’s probably very wrong, 
. At most I think they’ve been dabbling in some contemporary marketing stuff, to cater to the impatient. Yeah, the fine cuisine also has a side window that serves burgers and shakes. A buck is a buck. They run a business. The core, omega, never changed. Until it does they will have loyal customers. Perhaps the others can try out EvE Echoes (I have zero experience with that game) and see if it’s a better fit ?
p.s. 18 months before they become competitive according to you ? That’s no small thing to compensate. That’s also a ton of revenue for ccp.
Welcome to 2023 where everyone is a winner.
Of course there is a reason…other than any stated above. It forces players to engage in grind PvE and basically means that those who prefer PvP or dislike grind PvE are disadvantaged by any such system.
And in any case, players can already accelerate their SP via cerebral boosters…which they can pay for via whatever money-making process they have in the game. Even the basic one that I applied today knocked about 15% off skill training time…for 38 hours. For a mere 3 million ISK.
I think all this ’ one player with X skills is not necessarily better than another player with X skills ’ argument actually just gets in the way. To argue that the skills ‘can’ make no difference is not a generally applicable argument that they ‘do’ make no difference. Nobody really knows the extent of it. A one day old noob in a Condor can probably take out a Titan…in some rare circumstance. But so what ? The general trend has to be that more skills do equal ‘better’, or nobody would bother skilling up as it would make no difference.
Heh, I rather prefer it to the gatekeeper position. Next we’ll be discussing differences in the gene pool, how “unfair” individual trait differences can be, and how those effects should be undone. That’s what you get in a time where everyone is taught to believe they can be anything. There is a price.
Well of course a noob is going to argue things should be made easier for noobs. The Pope is a Catholic, and bears poo in the woods. Lets see whether you still want things made even easier for the next batch of noobs after you’ve waited through some lengthy skills grind of a year or so and all of a sudden the new noobs are getting the same skills in 6 months or so.
Thank you.
You also have no good argument for the removal of the Skill Queue. If you don’t want to wait the developer has kindly provided a way around that but didn’t have to. They could simply said tough luck, pay and wait or go, no Alpha clones no nothing so before come on their forum and suggesting all sorts fallacies I would rarher you post a thankful bit about what you like of the game.
Or you can pay developers to make a EVE-like game the way you like.
Either way, there is no need to act like a savage.
Play on!!
I was talking about how well whatever changes they may make would integrate with what we have today.
This is why I long ago had decided to seek out a mentor, someone who is highly educated to learn from. To be honest, I don’t know much about the game.I think I do but I’m still trying to find out how to progress.