Well … personally I regard myself as kind of an expendable tool of this civilization. Money doesn’t matter a whole lot to me, though maybe that’s a little easy for me to say since I do have some resources. Mostly I just see it as means to various ends, though-- a form of power. (I’m a little suspicious of amassing too much of that, as well.)
You’re right that I’m of mixed heritage and maybe a little bloodthirsty, though.
I have philosophical and political differences with most Gallente, Republican Matari, and actually most persons who consider it their duty to be skeptical of authority, Ms. Teinyhr. That doesn’t seem like it ought to be news to you, really.
Indeed. Yet the first things I see concerning this new civilization is outright pondering how they are probably a danger to us we need to deal with in the most violent way possible, because a CONCORD representative said so. CONCORD. The organization most people present would decry of as secretive, if not outright dishonest - the slaver hounds of space to capsuleer class.
No scientific interest, not “if they are enemies of the drifters, well, enemy of my enemy could be my friend”, no, very first speculations about them was how can we justify killing them. Like I said earlier, not like I was surprised though. In my mind news about previously unknown human society being found is damn incredible and I can say my first thoughts were not how to blow them up, but “who are they, what is their history, and in the light of previous encounters, can we coexist in peace?”
Just because you and your friends might be a smidgen more honourable and contemplative than most, it doesn’t change the fact that the capsuleers are tools, and tools largely for bad things, rather than good. Also a strange tool in that it is just as dangerous to itself than it is to anything else.
Why I facepalmed so hard probably these Triglavians heard it also, was that you apparently (?) believe the “core powers” of CONCORD care about the capsuleers as anything but cannon fodder, one that can respawn like in those online games. If they tell us something is bad, go kill it, it’s probably because they want to come scavenge the bones of whatever beast we felled before.
I mean, ok, that’s necessarily not bad, I do work for people I consider trustworthy or in need of my help. CONCORD usually have enough muscle to do their own dirty work, so the very fact that they sicced capsuleers against these Triglavians is incredibly suspicious, not something to be taken at face value of “well they probably know better.”
Sorry, the older I get, the more cynical and angrier I seem to get too.
Also, before anyone brings up me rooting for CONCORD in the recent past, that was done largely because I detest the person they were hounding at the time. Yep, I am a petty indvidual at times.
If they are human, then, they have souls in need of Reclaiming.
And if CONCORD don’t want peaceful interaction with them, then, clearly, CONCORD are afraid of them being peacefully integrated into e.g. the Amarr Empire, and thereby upsetting the status quo that CONCORD have tried to maintain between the four Great Powers.
So, CONCORD calls for extermination of these people.
Well.
I, for one, decline to exterminate people I haven’t even met yet.
Ms Teinyhr, it is a known modus operandi of human groups to exploit/subjugate/destroy new groups of humans, actually pretty much every lifeform.
While some will have an inquiring approach and try to discover more, usually those are backed by the ones trying to exploit, learn what they can to better subjugate until they find it adequate to destroy.
Before we were capsuleers we were created among humans, so it is quite natural that this trend is passed along, this time to immortal beings with vast amounts of money and quasi-independent powers.
Some will only see shiny targets, others will perceive only shiny lootboxes, and in the middle of all this there are still those of us who look upon the stars and wonder about what lies beyond, the mysteries that our existence have not yet met and just contemplate in awe the beauty of this experience.
My heart is bursting with happiness with the perspective of new groups, new thoughts and new people showing up in never before seen in records locations. That means we can go further.
This is ludicrous. I do not for a second believe that the Triglavians are “evenly matched” with the Drifters, because WE are barely “evenly matched” with them. Unless the Triglavians have adopted a similar doctrine as ARC in their effect of destroying them - of which we have empirical evidence they have decidedly NOT destroyed them - then we can only expect they are stronger by nature of being able to survive the Drifters’ doomsdays. Moreover, they are able to do so from MULTIPLE Drifters, as evidenced by both the video footage and the surviving death balls.
And there need not be evidence of their hostility to assume that we need to bring the offensive to them. As I said, bringing the fight to the Triglavians is a matter of utilitarian necessity. They have extraordinary mutagenic technology that the Drifters MUST know about (hence their own offensive campaign) and if we are to stay competitive against the Drifters we in turn must also have this advantageous technology. We CANNOT allow that technology to fall into their hands when we are barely able to hold a fight against them as it is.
And I heavily doubt that the Triglavians are capable of diplomacy. I accept CONCORD at their word for two reasons: 1. They are coming to capsuleers for help. 2. The Triglavian ship that Oveg Drust piloted was heavily damaged - likely from the Triglavians themselves.
I am fully willing to accept the plausibility, but I highly doubt it. It is about as feasible and probable as diplomacy with the Drifters.
Nevertheless… The Drifters remain an active and engaging threat against humanity. The Triglavians do not. Thus, we must address the Drifters first and foremost, and we must use every advantage we can to do so. If the Triglavians force our hand, then that is the end of discussion.
The way I see it, the Drifters are engaging in abnormal behavior for a reason right? The Triglavans are new and we don’t know if they are a threat or a potential Ally so maybe we should try to investigate the Drifter’s behavior further and try communication with the Triglavans before shooting at them. If it works then no matter what we would be better off. If they are friendly then we have a new Ally and if not we would know more about our enemy.
First off, we have no information on how the engagement depicted in the vault footage ended. Did what now are identified with high probability to be Triglavian ships, win? Did they lose? Did both sides withdraw before landing decisive blows? We have no solid information about anything in regards to them.
Muta-what? What are you talking about? The CONCORD person, Vax(Vex? Dax?) Amita said nothing of the sort. What he DID say however was that CONCORD needs our help in “exploring this deadspace”, not “shoot everything in sight”, though that was implied, as often is when capsuleers are involved. He also did claim that from their analysis “the Triglavians and Drifters seem evenly matched” which you then went on to dismiss.
Then you have the audacity to assume that the Triglavians are incabable of diplomacy, when again, the very few bits of information we have said that no crew was found (mind, we only have CONCORDs word for this, who knows if they’re being tortured or sliced open somewhere for information), and that they are presumed human - likely from studying the ship and its interiors. That’s not much to go on to decide if they are a threat or an ally.
We have enough threats in this cluster. I’d rather make an ally for once.
Well … me too, only from the briefing it sounds like these are beings who’ve diverged pretty sharply from our own situation. I wonder if we can contact them without getting shot at.
Only against us. Out in nullsec their fleets are as vulnerable as anyone else’s, and, I assume I know that because at some time I don’t remember anymore I killed a few.
I do agree that we’re their go-to people for high-volume wetwork, though.
Uh … actually I think they use us kind of like a utility: hot and cold running murder. If we become obsolete at some time I actually kind of think most of us will be put down. There are some people I’d want to see spared if that happened. I don’t expect that to include me, though.
If I cared about myself very much I’d probably have retired a long time ago. Like, as soon as I became aware of my situation. Considering how many people I’ve killed, since, though, I don’t feel I have a lot of right to complain if I’m killed, in turn.
I’ve been accused of being fatalistic, but I just look at it as accepting my place in this world.
Everything in this world dies, including me, sooner or later. That’s okay.
From the briefing it sounded to me Ol’ Concy’s just as unsure as anyone, as no one has met a Triglavian. They’re just theorizing, perhaps rightly so, that a subset of assumed humans that has evolved separated from other humans for who knows for how long is likely unpredictable and might’ve evolved culturally signifigantly differently. I wonder how they’ll react, perhaps they employ a NBSI policy in what is their space? Just throwing this out there before someone complains “they shot first” - well so do most null sec alliances too when you go poking around their space.
This constant prattling about pacifism toward dangerous entities… Where was it when the Blood Raiders and Gurista started manning forward operating bases in high-security systems? Why the special circumstances toward Drifters and this new faction of humans who we have been told is dangerous by the very powers that are meant to keep US, the most dangerous individuals in the cluster, in line? Do you not think that CONCORD, now with the input of none other than the Society of Conscious Thought, would have tried diplomacy first?
For months now we have undergone constant mundane controversy over the Drifters and now the Triglavians. If you want to play the diplomatic route, do so. No-one will stop you. Do not get in the way of those of us who would serve as the vanguard, though, because we at least offer you the respect of allowing you to attempt your foolhardy ways.
I’ve made my case. Stop attempting to debase my premise with this false philanthropy - if you’ve another means of preventing the Drifters from expanding into the unknown and taking the means with which to potentially destroy all of us, then bring it to the table. Otherwise, bring this rhetoric elsewhere.
Sir, you would not know what pacifism was even if it bit you on the bum, so please, do not invoke it in vain. Blood Raiders and Gurista are known entities. Former members of current empires, commonly labeled as pirates for their own nefarious schemes which are fairly well known around the cluster.
Because Drifters and now the Triglavians are still largely a blank book. We have some clues or ideas about them, but what are they doing in our space now and what for, we have no actual idea. Many assume it is to wipe us out, but as has been gone over I don’t know how many times, for evil, conquering overlords they’re doing a very half-assed job of it.
Maybe they would try diplomacy first? I dunno. As has been established, they found the ship in Raneilles, and that they have not in fact been in contact with any living Triglavian, or at least that’s what I gathered from the short presentation.
It makes diplomacy harder when what could be considered “our side” is also shooting at them. “I come in peace. Don’t mind these people who look like me and fly ships like I do blasting your crap in to atoms though. I come in peace, honest.” I’m not stopping you from shooting them, I can’t. I’m just asking you not to, until proper contact with them can be established, if it indeed even can.
I’ve also made my case, numerous times, but you refuse to listen and tell me to shut up each time. So no, you shut up, listen and digest for once, or take your rhetoric elsewhere.
@Nomistrav please describe the information that you and the other attendees at the SoCT gathering have been provided by CONCORD on these “Triglavian” entities.
Because, right now, the summary of what is publicly known about them is pretty much:
“They exist.”
Which is scantier than a Gallente exotic dancer’s outift, in terms of being justification to invade their space, murderise them, harvest their technology, and utilise that technology in our own political squabbling.
The Drifters attacked first. Shooting at them can be justified. They’ve taken hostile action.
These “Triglavians”, what have they ever done that they deserve extermination ?
The word of the SARO division of CONCORD ? Have there not been rumours that they are operating without authorisation ?
But go ahead if you want. Be SARO’s little slaver hound, given the “KILL!” order by your master.
They literally said that they sent a ship through abyssal deadspace in the presentation…
And if I - Nomistrav, who was laughed at for BEING pacifist in its strictest definitin not even a year ago - don’t know a thing about pacifism, then either this audience is totally bereft of the ability to use the search function in this forum or are deliberately being ignorant. Both of which I find disastrously humorous.
The drifter shot first? Really?
I wasn’t around when they appeared but from what i heard it was US that shot first…
For the triglavian the debate to know if shooting them is the right thing is pretty pointless since CONCORD can always set an announce through the agency and is the price is at least fair, capsuleers all around new eden will shoot without asking questions.
Does no one remember the corrupted trinary that everyone GAVE to the quatermaster?
