[SoERR][EM] Changes in status and services

(Deitra Vess) #121

I’m asking this out of my own ignorance, not to prove a point: What exactly do you understand would happen to a person of Matari Descent who walked to the Amarrian forces and seeking protection from those willing to defend themselves? Just knowing from the past it would not be a stretch that those who already know they will die aren’t beneath suicidal tactics. Surprise attacks, suicide bombing, ect? This situation I can’t imagine them welcoming those who do not wish to fight. Knowing the events of Kanah, post Deathglow, do you honestly expect them to actually feel safer going to seek safety from the forces who slaughtered innocents just a month prior? Yes they would be forced into it by one side but the other would end the same in their eyes. Am I wrong? Recent history on this is not exactly the material good feelings are made of.

There probably no definitely were those who didn’t wish to comply with revolting. Its easy to think rationally when its not a life or death decision for yourself. In the situation we have here, I personally wouldn’t see a life option in this decision making so why fight the tide?

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #122

There’s so many things factually wrong in your post, Admiral, that I am surprised about it, coming from you. I will correct the two most important:

I don’t rejoice in death any more than you do; and while it is true I cannot have complete control on what people do with resources that flow through us, I am not indifferent to it. Wars are terrible things. I would rather they did not exist.

And second, to speak of it as if “Elsebeth” did all this is false. I am the public face of this network, yes, but it was not me alone, or me single-handedly. There is not any one individual you can target for it; should I fall my sisters and brothers are more than capable of taking over.

You are correct in stating that Electus Matari remains loyal to the Minmatar Republic, and takes its cues from it re: international policies.

(Gaven Lok'ri) #123

Yes. Because thousands of them did accept the blanket promise of safe refuge (edit: for the duration of the crisis, all have been returned to their rightful holders at this point) that PIE forces, at least, offered. Several of the siege situations even ended with loyal slaves that had been conscripted into the rebellion at gunpoint actively aiding our Kameira assault groups.

The methods used on Thebeka were nothing like those used on Kahah, and none of the forces on Thebeka III were involved in that utter debacle.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #124


(Deitra Vess) #125

Hmm, I see what your saying on that, my only thought would be, “how would they know that on the ground?” (The different forces than kahah part). I would imagine your blanket offer would be more than enough info to utilize honestly.

Thank you

(Arrendis) #126

Or opportunists eager to bend to whichever way the winds were blowing…

Now, I’m not saying the rebels didn’t do that, of course. Wasn’t down there, didn’t have personal eyes on hundreds of thousands of people. It’d be stupid to make a claim like that… but it would be just as stupid to claim that every tale of ‘no, m’lud, they forced me to help!’ was legitimate, too. People get cold feet. They get swept up in things and later regain a sense of their own mortality. They concoct stories about why they weren’t to blame, they shouldn’t be punished.

And that’s all fine. It’s natural. It’s predictable—not necessarily on the fine scope of who’ll do what, but statistically, at least.

And really, we’d be a bunch of bloody hypocrites if we said that people choosing to submit, choosing to not rebel, shouldn’t be allowed to do that, if it’s truly their choice. Humanity finds comfort in structure and hierarchy, in familiar patterns and rhythms. Those who (and again, statistically, it’s pretty much a given that it happened) were forced to fight against their will… I hope they found a way out of it.

Because even that… even someone choosing to submit… no matter how incomprehensible it might be to others… if you advocate for self-determination, then you have to accept someone’s right to give that self-determination up. Or you’re just shackling them to a concept of ‘freedom’ that they probably see as onerous, unwelcome, compulsory… slavey, in some regards.

(Gaven Lok'ri) #127

Arrendis said: “It’d be stupid to make a claim like that… but it would be just as stupid to claim that every tale of ‘no, m’lud, they forced me to help!’ was legitimate, too. People get cold feet. They get swept up in things and later regain a sense of their own mortality. They concoct stories about why they weren’t to blame, they shouldn’t be punished”

Of course not. The Holders and Courts will be very busy for some time sorting it all out. PIE forces jurisdiction ends as soon as the active threat does, so we don’t make calls on motives.

I do believe we will find thst vast majority of people caught up in the mess were innocents caught in a horrible situation that was created by Blood Raiders and made worse by Anti-Slavery militants.

(Arrendis) #128

I believe we will find that the vast majority of people caught up in the mess were innocents caught in a horrible situation that was created, propagated, expanded, and exacerbated for centuries by the Amarr Empire, then set alight by Blood Raider-friendly agents of the greater Empire’s power structure, and that those victims were given a comparatively tiny amount of aid in making decisions about how they would choose to live out their lives by those who would see them get that choice, at least once.

(Samira Kernher) #129

You really don’t get it.

Pressure points, Aria. Hit the right ones, and the whole thing shatters. It’s not about winning individual battles, or individual wars. It’s about applying enough stress on the system that it buckles.

Yes, you’re right. A lot of people are dying, and going to die. And a lot of those are innocent people who never wanted this fight. Ten years ago, I’d have hated what everyone here is trying to do. This war is a terrible, tragic thing.

But so is what it’s trying to change. People were always suffering, dying. Even here, even where the system was at its best, at its closest to what Blessed Servitude is supposed to be about, there was abuse. Any system that gives a human unrestrained power over another human will be abused. Nauplius taught me that. And he’s not an exception. Humanity is an awful, vile thing. The part slavery gets right is that people need shackles against their inner demons. But when it gives some people free reign to lord unchecked over others, even tells them that they are inherently superior when their own actions show just how laughable that idea is, it instead becomes a system of abuse.

There is pain and death no matter the course we take. Because it’s not about the wars. Those are symptoms of the real problem, of the underlying system. By continuing to push this system forward, Amarr creates the tension that leads to rebellion. You blame the rebels, but ignore the real culprit. The pain in slavery leads to the pain of war.

And I’ll remind you, and everyone else here again, that there is no consideration for condemnations of war from Amarr or those who would put themselves its supporters. Despite protestations of peace from certain Amarr (especially in SFRIM), war to forward the cause of good is endemic to Amarrian history. Amash-Akura himself, who lead Amarr in the years when it was at its closest to what God intended, founded it through the Light or the Flame: war. When sin and corruption are festering, they must be cut out. It is a painful thing, but Missions 42:5. Hardship is sometimes necessary to bring mankind closer to God. Keep in mind when you go bemoaning people for war, Aria, that you are fighting for an Empire that believes that war for good causes is righteous, or even divine.

(Samira Kernher) #130

I like how you talk about conscription while also mentioning Kameiras.

(Gaven Lok'ri) #131

Legal conscription into the Amarr order of things is a very different thing than criminals conscripting people who were already in their proper place in the Amarr order.

(Arrendis) #132

Conscription is conscription. Forcing someone else to fight and die for a cause not their own is the same no matter how you paint it with a veneer of legality.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #133

Ok, you had me there. I don’t know how to answer that.

I mean, the counter is obvious. The argument is obvious.

I also know you are not stupid enough to not know it is obvious.

(Aria Jenneth) #134

But you see Samira: it’s going to fail. Even if it succeeds, it’ll fail.

Neither you nor EM has the insight to really understand which pressure points you actually need to hit. You talk a good game, but your own understanding is so distorted you think Amarr could ever have been that thing you have in your head. There are things here I don’t think you understand very well, so I doubt you can bring it down.

And it’ll be even worse if it succeeds. Do you think it’s just coincidence these events are being spearheaded by Blood Raiders?

The Empire is a human institution-- an ordered hierarchy, bound together by a common faith. I admire it precisely for its durability and dedication to order. If it falls, what comes next will be no better. It’ll be at least as violent and far more chaotic. Probably Sabikism will thrive-- a religion that doesn’t even pretend the strong owe anything at all to the weak.

Your people will suffer all the more. And you’ll have helped bring that about.

Either way, you’re not helping. You’re just making it worse.

Not that I expect you to be able to believe that right now. So I’ll see you in space.

(Aldrith Shutaq) #135

Just a pawn in a game, with fools and monsters pushing her across the board.

(Fifinella) #136

Common faith? Presumably that excludes a large swathe (if not the majority) of slaves, then?

(Mizhara Del'thul) #137

Who did the killing? These people had already risen up, seeking their freedom, and your Masters were already slaughtering them. None of them had any illusions, or false hope. They still rose up, they reached for the stars and wherever we could we reached down to grasp their hands. The side you chose decided to try and cut them down instead, very much preferring them dead rather than free.

Yeah, let me know when your very sizable Navy fleets stop raiding and slaving within our borders you hypocritical sack of shite. When you have never respected those treaties, you really don’t get to huff and whine when others start ignoring them as well. Far more importantly, what the capsuleers did over Thebeka? Find me a treaty the Republic signed that was broken by the Republic here. These are all independent capsuleers. If you’ve got a problem with what they/we do, take it up with CONCORD. They’re the only legal body that gets to say anything about what we do or don’t get to do.

So Empress Kittenz and her ilk are responsible for what Fweddit did in the skies of Kahah I take it? I mean, since you’re trying to set the standard that when capsuleers claim loyalty to something, that something is suddenly liable for what those capsuleers do. Like blow up millions of people in a massive blood sacrifice, in the name of your Empire.

It is heartening to know that should this come to pass, there’s people who can light the way forwards. You have grown so much, Dread Kin. I always knew you were the most dangerous of my enemies. So much fire in there.

You have made it abundantly clear from as far back as when we warned you about your path and where it would lead, that you have no understanding of the Empire or its people, Aria. You can go back and read the old forums, the old IGS logs and so on and see. We predicted your whole path. We saw the chains wrapping slowly around your mind, heart and spirit. Among us, among the Amarr, your trajectory was predictable and has been borne out exactly as we saw it.

Understanding is not something we lack, I fear. We understand it all too well, and every prediction we’ve made about you, the Empire and the outcomes of today and all the other days we’ve done what little we can has so far come true. You on the other hand, can’t even attribute the most basic of motivations to us correctly, showing a staggering lack of understanding of Elsebeth Rhiannon, Electus Matari, Samira Kernher, Arrendis, myself, those brave men and women dirtside and more.

I know you must desperately cling to the hard line of your chosen loyalties in order to avoid the pain inherent in facing the massive cracks and lies they’re built on and around. I understand that your path has led you to those terrible places where there is no middleground, where you must choose between extremes, because any other path would crumble beneath your laden heavy feet. I understand, and we even sympathize as we correctly predicted exactly this so long ago.

… but I fear that pain you’re going to face will be hard and very well deserved nonetheless, because either of the two extreme paths you take will eventually lead to actual understanding of where you now stand, and the only question is whether you’ll howl in agony at a mirror, or have become so deadened that it doesn’t faze you anymore.

(Arrendis) #138

That’s no way to talk about Aria.

(Melisma Ramijozana) #139

This is beyond petty, and I’m extremely disappointed.

(Aria Jenneth) #140



No, that won’t quite do. Melisma, you do get that this is a war, right? That they’re actively trying to burn our metaphorical house down?

And it’s petty of us to carry a little bit of the fire back over the border?

Okay, I guess, if you insist. I guess I can be a little petty, then.