This may have made a modicum of sense a week ago. Attacking EM outposts after Rhiannon already announced her intention to withdraw is petty.
This conflict has been stale for a while now, ever since it stopped being about the rebellions. All you’ve done is prolonged something that would have ended quietly and in Amarr’s favor.
Also, everything that Mizhara just said.
You say we should let them do as they like without further consequence, just because they say they’re done now.
But they’re still here. The war continues.
This isn’t over, Melisma.
And if you’re looking to that person as a source of wisdom, I don’t think we have much more to talk about for now.
To clarify: after Elsebeth made her post on this thread that implied an intent to withdraw, I contacted to confirm if this was indeed her intent, and to offer to end our war with E-M if they would commit to leaving within aproimately a week and a day (the amount of time it would take their citadel to unanchor, plus a little extra), and to, in essence, not defend anyone who choose not to leave.
They declined.
Don’t you think they’d move out faster if they weren’t under fire? Anything in the way of letting them move out materials? Before it’s said, I don’t wish to hear about how they can’t be trusted or they’re still attacking. If you aren’t letting them leave what do you expect exactly?
I think it’s pretty clear that Aria is a lost cause… Or, well, one could say, a convert.
Of course it isn’t, Aria. “This” began long before either of us were born, and at this point I’m expecting that it will end long after we depart this existence. If you plan to wardec Mataris until we stop fighting, I have to tell you, that will be a very long and consistent wardec.
That’s a bit of a jump. I cosigned one post (and whatever anyone may think of her, Mizhara del’Thul doesn’t need my pathetically unimportant cosignature on anything). And I didn’t think it was worth repeating what had already been said quite well.
I’m not familiar with EM’s thinking or operations, so I don’t intend to address either here, but this does make me wonder why SFRIM (or LUMEN if you prefer) declared war on them in the first place. Given the timing, it seemed to be in relation to SoERR’s Thebeka operations. But in that case, once those operations are declared to end, then the war should be quits as well. If it had been me, such an offer from you would have been poorly received in that respect.
What is your goal in this, then? What do you stand to achieve from attacking structures in Matari space? Surely it isn’t to follow the prerogatives given to drive foreign actors out of Empire space, because these structures aren’t in Empire space. As Deitra said, you’re probably hindering the speed of their departure.
If the week passes and the SoERR structure isn’t unanchored as promised, then maybe take action to speed them along. But now? That logic just feels weak and, to be frank, very personal. It wouldn’t surprise me coming from other Amarr elements, but not from you, Garion. This is beneath you.
I’m stubborn.
I wish.
Out of curiosity, Garion, did your terms include extensions on that if, say, someone like I-RED were to pause the unanchoring timer be reinforcing the citadel? Or did you just demand a commitment to a specific time-frame that would set them up to be forced to break that commitment, simply by virtue of your allies not letting them leave?
And yet, she’s still a devoted zealot alright, Sami. Just not to the Amarr faith. Rather, she’s a devoted zealot of the Church of Aria’s Convenience.
Arrendis, as I understand it from Lord Avarr who was given my permission to try to negotiate a resolution, they declined his proposal. Had a response been given that indicated a receptiveness to negotiation but identified issues to discuss, such as the point you raised, that would have been appropriate. A negotiation does often include counteroffers to an original offer if a party is interested in a discussion. No specific counteroffer was made, nor - to my understanding - was a willingness to discuss terms to resolve perceived difficulties with accepting the terms clearly expressed other than to raise the concern that the request their involvement end would, necessarily include their non-involvement with our continuing conflict with other actors in the theatre. That latter point seemed to moot the point of a resolution premised on a complete withdrawal. If a willingness to discuss further exists, and includes a complete withdrawal, I invite Ms. Rhiannon to contact Lord Avarr and copy me.
*Edited after discussing with Lord Avarr to make a correction which I felt was important.
While I did not explicitly mention extensions for such a situation, I did mention that the time to withdraw could be flexible.
This is why I asked what the specifics of his proposal were.
So ‘abandon those who assisted you, and maybe we won’t paint you as breaking the deal if someone else stops the timer 6d in, again and again’.
Yeah, I can’t see why they wouldn’t have been open to discussions.
Still looking for an answer to this.
There is a war happening, combat operations against exposed targets tend to be planned and executed during wars for a rather wide variety of strategic and tactical reasons. The idea that one side should just call off any operations they have planned and let the enemy retreat without harassment once an intent to retreat is declared is really rather bizarre.
See my question about what the goals and motives for the “war” are. Initially you seemed to want to get rid of us foreign actors in Amarr space. Well, we’re going.
So what are you after now? Giggles?
Those come after you learn not to come here again.
Okay, I’ll accept that.
We are Matari, though. We’re kinda bad at not doing the things we’re not supposed to do.
To be honest, the idea that we would blame them and hold them at fault if someone else delayed it due to reinforcing their citadel, thus my not thinking to include such a provision.
Regardless, what they voiced objection to was the requirement that they not defend the citadels of Ms. Kernher and Ms. Del’thul (specifically mentioning that they did not want to be bound to not defend it against third parties such as PIE). LUMEN’s belief is that if they cannot be considered to be no longer an active party in the area around Thebeka if they are defending other people who are still active parties.
Apologies, I was busy on an operation.
Regarding our reasons for war, they remain the same as they always have been: for E-M to withdraw from non-warzone Amarr space (specifically Thebeka at the moment), which includes as an absolute condition not assisting non-E-M forces that are hostile to Amarr in any capability against Amarr forces (potentially unless those forces are also in the process of withdrawing). Once this is accomplished and confirmed to be in progress, including where needed agreements that they will not assist in the defense of non-E-M forces who have announced no intention to leave, we intend to end the war at the soonest possible moment.
While we respect that PIE of course operates in a different way, once E-M confirms to us that they are in fact leaving – which they refused to confirm when I directly asked – and that they will not defend others who are not leaving, LUMEN will be entirely content to let them go without harassment. Until then, we will use a variety of methods to attempt to encourage them to leave.
As for the specifics of what we intended to accomplish with this morning’s operation, I am afraid I must decline to answer what the hoped for result of specific operations is at this point in time.
From PIE’s perspective, the state of war with Electus Matari started with their first anti-Amarr commerce raids rather a long time ago and has never ended. Given that the chances of any sort of negotiated settlement between PIE and Electus Matari approach 0 unless relations between the Empire and Republic change dramatically, I do not foresee any change in this state of perpetual hostility. They aren’t going to stop Anti-Amarr operations just because they leave Thebeka, after all.
Sure. No argument there at all. But the idea that one side should offer negotiations that amount to ‘completely capitulate and damage your reputation, and in exchange, we’ll declare victory without having to do any more work’… that seems pretty bizarre too, now doesn’t it?
Well, Aldrith, you know us Matari… we learn that lesson slow. But don’t worry, we’ll be almost halfway there right about the heat death of the universe.
And again, ‘abandon those who aided you’. Would LUMEN do that? What if I said ‘get out of Thebeka and cancel all your wardecs or we’ll declare war and cloaky-camp you throughout all of empire?’ I mean, I wouldn’t expect you to take that deal. That’d be a pretty crappy deal, and frankly, it’d just embolden me to make more demands to not ‘change the terms of our arrangment’. Has LUMEN extended an offer to Samira to let her withdraw peacefully? Has LUMEN made arrangements with PIE to ensure it won’t be LUMEN’s allies nailing EM’s foot to the floor here while LUMEN tells them to leave?
Realistically, Garion, this isn’t a scenario where one fraction of one faction can negotiate with one fraction of the other. You’d need to have people on both sides with the standing to negotiate for the entire side, and the clout to enforce the agreement on their own people.
And really, I have yet to see any of those entities declared ‘enemies of Amarr’. They’re unmolested by the Imperial Navy. MIO doesn’t try to apprehend them. You’d think if they were ‘enemies of Amarr’, the Navy ships on the gates they travel through might actually pay attention to them, no? We’ve all seen the ‘criminals are not allowed in blahblahblah’ broadcasts. Ain’t seen FacPo stop a one of the folks you’re targeting, though.