[SoERR][EM] Changes in status and services

(Arrendis) #161

Sure. No argument there at all. But the idea that one side should offer negotiations that amount to ‘completely capitulate and damage your reputation, and in exchange, we’ll declare victory without having to do any more work’… that seems pretty bizarre too, now doesn’t it?

Well, Aldrith, you know us Matari… we learn that lesson slow. But don’t worry, we’ll be almost halfway there right about the heat death of the universe.

And again, ‘abandon those who aided you’. Would LUMEN do that? What if I said ‘get out of Thebeka and cancel all your wardecs or we’ll declare war and cloaky-camp you throughout all of empire?’ I mean, I wouldn’t expect you to take that deal. That’d be a pretty crappy deal, and frankly, it’d just embolden me to make more demands to not ‘change the terms of our arrangment’. Has LUMEN extended an offer to Samira to let her withdraw peacefully? Has LUMEN made arrangements with PIE to ensure it won’t be LUMEN’s allies nailing EM’s foot to the floor here while LUMEN tells them to leave?

Realistically, Garion, this isn’t a scenario where one fraction of one faction can negotiate with one fraction of the other. You’d need to have people on both sides with the standing to negotiate for the entire side, and the clout to enforce the agreement on their own people.

And really, I have yet to see any of those entities declared ‘enemies of Amarr’. They’re unmolested by the Imperial Navy. MIO doesn’t try to apprehend them. You’d think if they were ‘enemies of Amarr’, the Navy ships on the gates they travel through might actually pay attention to them, no? We’ve all seen the ‘criminals are not allowed in blahblahblah’ broadcasts. Ain’t seen FacPo stop a one of the folks you’re targeting, though.

(Garion Avarr) #162

Probably not, no. Nor do I particularly blame E-M for not taking: I simply contend that we cannot consider them as ‘withdrawing’ while it remains likely that they will aid forces that are not withdrawing.

Sadly true, yes. However, I did have to try. I blame no one for the fact that it was not successful.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #163

To clarify, after I posted my intent to leave,

  • Garion Avarr contacted me to ask whether I was serious with that
  • I confirmed that I am
  • I declined to give specific time for that to a war target
  • Garion Avarr then suggested an additional deal, where in exchange for LUMEN dropping their wardec on EM, we will promise to not defend Samira’s structure or take offensive action against anyone Amarr affiliated in the system during our evacuation
  • we obviously declined.

I can show his offer word-to-word if need be, but that’s the gist of it. He wanted us to refrain from hostilities against all Amarrian-affiliated forcecs in exchange for one of them dropping their wardec.

Not only will we of course not agree to such a one-sided offer of cease-fire, we also cannot commit to leave in a given timeframe when we cannot get guarantees on when we can evacuate without interference.

Posing that as “EM refused to leave” is utterly nonsensical. Unless Garion Avarr is completely stupid, he seems to have offered terms he knew would be unacceptable to any sensible party, just so he can parade that around IGS and even to his own saying “but we offered”. Pro-tip: I wrote the original Capsuleer PR 101. Don’t play these games with me.

(Graelyn) #164


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #165

Also, kind of hard to evacuate when

  1. The citadel you’d need to unanchor is on a timer, and
  2. You have to also run defense fleets somewhere completely different.

I suppose we are delaying our original timeframe for starting the dismantling process, then.

Nice play for a rookie, SFRIM. Too bad it is kind of transparent as far as plots go.

In very simple words for the intellectually disadvantaged audience: while their words speak otherwise, with their actions LUMEN is asking us to stay now.

(Garion Avarr) #166

Please elaborate on exactly what it was you said in our conversation that I was supposed to understand as “yes, we are leaving, but I’m not going to tell you when.” It’s possible there was some transmission error and this never reached me, perhaps, but my logs do not show you as confirming such in that conversation.

Correction: major offensive action. Which I perhaps should have specified as meaning “don’t bash structures or start large scale fleet engagements.” In other words, act like people who are withdrawing in a non-hostile fashion.

What we require as far as terms:
E-M unanchoring their citadel in Thebeka.
A commitment from E-M to not assist in the defense of Ms. Kernher’s or Ms. Del’thul’s citadels.
A commitment to have all E-M forces withdrawn from Thebeka by a certain date. 2359 on the 18th of this month is suggested, but the exact day and time is negotiable.
E-M pledges not to undertake major offensive actions against Amarr affiliated targets in Thebeka until E-M forces have fully withdrawn.

If all of the above is agreed to, then we will send an offer to end the wardec once it is confirmed your citadel is unanchoring. I should note that I only speak for LUMEN.

There you go. That is the slightly more formalized proposal that was sent to members of EM whom I was given to understand had the authority to make such decisions after you told me you did not have such authority, by the way.

Which I would have been perfectly understanding of, had you mentioned it to me as a concern. While I admit I did not specify that my suggested deadline was merely a suggestion that was open to negotiation in my initial conversation with you, in my later message it was made clear that there could be flexibility.

You did, however, refuse to leave in a way that we consider acceptable, which is to say, in a way that did not involve you continuing to launch offensive actions for the next week or so and assist others who were not leaving.
And, unless there has been some great miscommunication (a possibility I do not entirely discount), you did, in fact, refuse to tell us that yes, you are actually leaving, and in a timeframe where it is more effective for us to simply wait than to attempt to force you out.

I offered terms that I knew were unlikely to be accepted, because those were the terms that were acceptable to us, and because the nature of the conflict in Thebeka as having multiple groups on each side did not allow me to offer a more comprehensive truce.

Did I expect it to be accepted? No. But I offered them because it is both my nature and LUMEN’s nature to make the offer, even if it is sure to be rejected, and, because I have, deep down inside of me, an inner optimist that likes to hold out hope for hopeless things.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #167

So, you posted your proposal yourself? Fine. Yes, that version was what I was referring to. The audience can now be the judge of whether that was anywhere close to something that could be taken seriously under consideration. That works for me.

You are correct that the confirmation of EM’s intent was not in fact in the conversation with you but with other Amarrian contacts elsewhere at roughly the same time. As you say, you acknowledged having read our announcement, but then the discussion went directly to setting your own terms for it and I referred you to operational command.

This is enough “he said, she said” for me. For future record, it does not count as diplomacy if you make offers that you know will be rejected. It counts as propaganda. (Again, judging from how keen you are to come to public with it, you probably know this already.)

As to EM’s intentions, they are unchanged. We are leaving the Thebeka theatre. Our own personnel, allied operatives, and civilian refugees are being transported out as we speak. Final timeline depends on events in space. We do not mind fighting you on the way out, but if you actually want us out faster, do not interfere with our operations. That serves only to slow down the process and escalate the conflict.

(Arrendis) #168

Yeah, see, this is the exact thing I was asking about. When you say ‘by a certain date’ and the vagaries of war and enemy action can force EM to still have combat assets (like, say, the citadel itself) in-system past that date without EM themselves able to prevent that in any way… that’s gonna come across as setting someone up as a public patsy.

Especially when the ‘payoff’ for EM is, in effect, LUMEN returning to exactly the way you started the conflict: no war-dec, but almost certainly happy to fly ‘neutral’ logistics for PIE’s fleets. That’s one of the pernicious things about being ‘neutral’ logi, you know? It immediately sends up those red flags that tell people ‘even if they allow the formal bribe to CONCORD to lapse, they’ll keep participating, because they already did that’.

Folks can’t trust ‘peace’ with you when ‘peace’ demonstrably involves you actively aiding in prosecuting war.

Edit: really can’t blame you too much for that, though, considering the example set by the Imperial Navy.

(Gaven Lok'ri) #169

I do have to say that SFRIM has been extremely consistent about only aiding PIE against forces that they have negative diplomatic relations with.

For example, they only started giving support to PIE against Darkar after he shot down Lunarisse’s Omen, and they were for some time entirely unwilling to give logistics support to PIE against anyone on field except Darkar until their own diplomatic efforts failed with each of those groups.

(Aldrith Shutaq) #170

In short, it has been the consistent provocation and concerted hostility of the entities in question that has turned them into what they are now. You only have yourselves to blame.

(Arrendis) #171

Such wonderful weasel-words. Which, believe me, aren’t a reflection on you or your intent. The term simply means a turn of phrase that builds in intentional lack of clarity. ‘negative diplomatic relations’. It’s not war, it’s not ‘here is the specific formal state that exists between us and clear guidelines on how we will behave’ it’s… vague. Purposefully so.

Considering I more or less explicitly told Luna and Aria ‘■■■■ or get off the pot, this ‘neutral logi’ nonsense is just going to see me kill every last one of you as soon as you go suspect’? Yeah. Yeah, I’ll take the blame for them committing, rather than trying to claim to be looking for a peaceful resolution while being a participating belligerent.

(Graelyn) #172

I don’t see why anyone should be justifying their intention to shoot a declared enemy, regardless of method, detail, or timing.

(Gaven Lok'ri) #173

I’m not going to defend diplomatic offers to EM, the entire idea is baffling to me, but I do think that suggesting SFRIM would make an agreement to let EM leave and then turn around and provide logistics support to PIE against EM as we do our best to make it difficult for EM to leave is not accurate at all.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #174

It was hardly Minmatar who started to complain and blame in this thread, you know?

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #175

You will notice the LUMEN offer that Garion Avarr chose to post is carefully worded so that the LUMEN offer covers ending the wardec. Not ‘ending hostilities’, or refraining ‘from undertaking major offensive actions’ (which is a wording that he uses for what he asks of us in the same offer).

If this is a botch, not intentional, it is a quite major one.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #176

Status update:

After a successful defense last night to remove the armor timer that was on the way, dismantling of Freedom’s Gate is now on its way, only marginally delayed from the original timeframe.

(Diana Kim) #177

I am glad to hear that the citadel with a disturbing name is being dismantled.

And I have high hopes that Ms. Elsebeth will return to Imperial custody any criminals that could have escaped Imperial legal system. Our cluster is already quite a dark place, there’s no reason to make it worse by letting these people go… free.

(Kuba Ganowski) #178

It`s mischief night tonight, everybody grab the guns and lets fight

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #179

Status update:

Freedom’s Gate finished unanchoring today at 02:16 and was dismantled and moved out without interference.

Let’s go home, folks; the show is over.

(Kuba Ganowski) #180

Alez, Ty mnie teraz zaimponowałaś Elzbietka