Communication is at its heart about sharing ideas and finding common ground. Where is the communication?
As I read through the forum is see a lot of trolling, a lot of complaining, and a lot of people not willing to listen to differing views. This includes some of the CSM. Now not everyone is gonna agree. Not everyone is willing to explore ideas that they may be apposed to for (insert reason) but we can make EVE better!
Status quo or solutions? What do you do when you see a stupid suggestion or complaint? I mean it’s stupid right? Or is it? Do you just assume things are fine or do you look to see if the game can be made better? Status quo or solutions?
Every complaint and every suggestion made point to an issue in the game. Perhaps not even the one the complainer or suggester thinks. These issues at the end of the day may not even be severe enough to actually necessitate a change in the game. This does not mean that the game can’t be made better! This does not mean the complaint or suggestion is invalid!
Without change there is no growth. Without growth there is stagnation. Where there is stagnation there is death.
This is a call to the CSM members. By nature of your position you are leaders of the EVE community. Set examples for the community! Get out there in the forums and be open to things! Don’t just shut things down. Explore possibilities. “I like this part of your idea… I don’t think it’d work because of… have you thought of how it’d affect this other part of the game?” Shut them down with good reasons if needed but stay open to the conversation cause you might be missing something. Who knows if everyone works together they may find a solution to the problems found. Also just because it’s not an issue for you doesn’t mean that things can’t be made better! Lead the community to find solutions! Tell individuals that you don’t like their behavior when they are jerks… or be a coward and don’t stand up for things while taking the easy out. Hell stand up to me if you honestly think I’m in the wrong.
If all we do is look for reasons not to (XYZ whatever) then that’ll be all we ever find. Lets look for ways to make EVE great. Lets find ways to work together so we can go gank some fat loot, scam the unsuspecting, chill with some friends in fleet, or whatever it is that brings each of us to EVE.
Lets stop fighting against each other out of EVE and work together. The forums should be a place for us to come together and I think the CSM members should make efforts to lead that behavior!
When someone makes a suggestion that seems stupid ask questions. Work to understand the issue at hand. What are they really trying to fix? is there a different and better solution? Do you keep the status quo or find a solution? I ask not just about the complaints but about the way this community treats each other. My complaint is that the EVE community in the forums craps on each other. My complaint is that the EVE community could be better but isn’t. My proposed solution is to call on the CSM to stand up and be role models. My solution Is to suggest that we as individuals stand up and seek change. That we seek solutions and not the status quo. Not everyone will be happy no matter what is done but that doesn’t meant that efforts shouldn’t be made to improve the game or the community.
Some people don’t understand the profession they work. Individuals that liked the idea of having summer off so they got a teaching degree and hate the kids. Cops that got the job cause they wanted to be in charge…
There are stupid people everywhere. There are confused people everywhere. There are also people who are figuring things out but don’t yet have a full grasp on it. There are also smart people.
Educate the educate-able. Redirect the lost.
One aught to do what one can to make things better, be that home, society, or the game they enjoy.
1 you can’t lay this at the CSM. Case in point “communication” and “discussion” led to the CSM suggesting to CCP that filament use shouldn’t be a thing in j-space. Seems like it’s working as intended right. Players ask for a change and that’s “communicated” to CCP and then CCP implement it. So why then when Brisc is singled out individually by some player that doesn’t like the change, and that player makes multiple threads attacking him, should Brisc make any effort to communicate at all?
2 what you are suggesting we should do is what is already happening. The issue it doesn’t matter have much ideas are “communicated” people will never agree. There is a thread currently where a player is accusing other players of exploiting. That player has been shown posts from CCP that say the behaviour is not an exploit, they have been linked to eve uni to a page that states the behaviour is not an exploit. They refuse to accept that and continue the accusations.
3 why shouldn’t the player base be passionate about defending a game they love? Change for the sake of change is not good change. Why should a players suggestion be taken seriously if they have not considered it seriously themselves. I got ganked so I don’t like ganking therefore ganking should be stopped.
4 in the above example of calls to remove ganking I think you will find countless members of the forum have “worked to understand the issue at hand” and spent quite a lot of time speculating on what the impacts would be. In short it’s been given far too much time for what it is.
5 This just seems to be some confused virtue signalling. However I do look forward to you leading be example and showing us all what we can be if we can only “communicate” and become our better selves.
Take our peers seriously on the forum and earnestly hear them out and engage? Take it from someone who strives to do just that, there just are some people on this forum that are consistently bad-faith, fellow-player-humanity-denying, player-agency-denying voices. My block list is tiny (2 people) but they are capable of writing more bad-faith garbage in a day than you and I could correct for, derailing threads, shifting goalposts, saying “your lived experiences don’t count”, and doing everything to scorch and tear down everyone else – the implication that they’ll be the only one left standing in “the right” spot, without ever having to meaningfully engage or defend that particular spot wherever it may be. At that point the thread is a goner, spoiled. They just dance around searching to find that spot because they can’t deal with the thought of being wrong and do not form a coherent argument to remain still at a particular metaphorical spot – whether they are unwilling or incapable, I’m not sure, and don’t care to figure out.
The only realistic way to combat that tide is by moderative action, but I’m of the belief that I would rather err on the side of letting people spew their crap and I just keep a tidy blocklist, instead of ISD moderation becoming heavy handed. I did exactly this over a decade ago as the sole mod in the young Technic/Tekkit minecraft mod forums, and either the children left and took their toxicity to the official minecraft forums (which was a cesspool) or they grew up really ■■■■■■■ quick from my heavy handed moderative actions and began treating others in the community like adults good-faith engaging on the topics at hand. However, I don’t think the Eve forums deserve that – different users, different time, and different place.
Many broad and complex things are based off of very simple things.
I lay at the feet of individuals who sought to be an interface of communication to be such. To not just have a view but to foster better communication and understanding within the community. To set examples of a higher moral bearing (a tall order for the internet I know) but keep in mind they chose a position of responsibility… some while only looking at the rewards.
Call a troll a troll but talk to him and try to understand if he’s a troll or if he’s frustrated by some facet of the game. The individual may latch onto some facet that isn’t even the real issue at hand. Use critical thinking. Try to understand the point of view and then look deeper. As I see it, it is the role that one signs onto when they run for the possession. Now if the individual is a genuine troll then the CSM member should call them out and the community should have their back.
Lets look at this from the points I made earlier. The individual thinks the behavior is an exploit. Why? Probably cause they think the action is unfair for some reason. They are likely lashing out cause nobody is listening and just telling them that they are stupid and wrong. Which i see here a lot. Is it honestly too much to ask that individuals try to understand others? I don’t ask that people agree but that they try to understand them before going “You’re wrong”. The whole “you’re wrong” approach tends to get people into a conflict based mindset. The whole Me vs Them as apposed to a real and meaningful dialogue.
This one says “ganking isn’t fun” Look at the deeper meaning. Ask how can ganking be made fun for them. Perhaps look at ideas for baiting the gankers to use more expensive fits in HS or a module that reports the wrong fit to a scanner and leaving the gankers victims of their own choices or… something that adds to the game. Something that makes more content for everyone. Perhaps not a change to the game engine but a group formed to gank gankers. A great revenge alliance to do away with gankers…
And this is also why I’m posting this here. Look deeper! Try to understand the real issue at hand. Everything in EVE can be better! What is most important for change is a harder issue to tackle and is something that I hope the CSM look at with CCP based on their understanding of the game after taking a deeper look at what the players complain about.
I am trying and will keep trying for as long as I play this game.
I see my post as more a call to action than a black and white suggestion. I do suggest that people look deeper and try to achieve a deeper understanding than just surface level. I realize that there be trolls that just want tears but there are real frustrations by those who don’t know how to express them and want to be heard. I’m asking that people don’t just shut others down. That real efforts are made to make a better community. To self moderate. To be better then I see them being. I direct this bit to all those on the forums.
If someone thinks they can’t learn to do their job better then they deserve a lecture. Myself included! I’d like to think that when someone takes on a job or role they will aim to meet or exceed expectations. Those who do the bare minimum to get their paycheck or reward are not people that I like. I can’t call out specific CSM members for gross dereliction of duty cause I don’t have enough interaction to say that but I can say from what I’ve seen that they and the community could and should be doing better!
I’d rather ganking was left as is and the player base was given a rig that would mask ones fit with another fit chosen upon rigging. Then based on the scanner and ones skills the ganker would see the rig and either the fake fit or random bits of the real and fake fit to the full real fit… I want to be able to mess with the gankers cause they can mess with me. Besides we need gankers or the ability to gank someone when needed
Indeed; and in each case there will be a negative and a positive aspect.
Communication is sometimes about commanding, lecturing, publishing; and whilst all these imply an object - a person - neither the sharing of ideas (in the sense you imply) nor seeking common ground, are the primary purposes of such communication.
I’m just saying it’s broader than you might realise.
You have been playing for two months. I’ve been playing for 16 years. I’ve been a CSM for almost three. It is rare to see this kind of arrogance from someone so new.
Do yourself a favor and spend a bit more time seeing how folks do things around here before suggesting that we’re not doing our jobs or that we could learn something new from someone who has spent less time in EVE than my 11 year old.
First, how do you know that some folks on the CSM “only looked at the rewards?” Do you even know what the “rewards” are? The rewards for me, so far, have been negligible. I have gotten death threats, harassment for my family, my name smeared publicly by the company, and a lot of lectures from people who have never done my job about what my job is. For example, claiming that it’s the CSM’s job to “foster better communication and understanding within the community.” That is emphatically not my job. That’s the community team’s job.
I represent the players to the company. Period. How I and my colleagues choose to do that is literally left up to us.
That is a colossal waste of time, and my time is more valuable than to try to spend it teasing out why a troll decided to wake up and act like an idiot each day.
This is exactly the issue at hand. Do you know only how to attack? Do you only know how to compare? If someone says there is a problem do you look at the problem or do you look for a reason not to pay any attention? I point out that CSM members and the community need to do better and all you care about is how old this account is. Is this an alt? Could I just be using this account to chat and point out issues? Or are you choosing to jump to conclusions and not make any efforts at proper communication as I am accusing this community? For clarification I started playing EVE at least 16 years ago when I bought the game from Walmart back when you could buy a physical copy. I will say that I’ve not been as able to play the game consistently as I’d like and have been gone for at least six years. Measuring sizes just says one has an ego and likes pissing contests.
Then I can say that we disagree on what it means to “represent the players to the company” and that’s fine. I still see it as my place to try and improve those aspects of that I see as lacking and encouraging you and any other individual to do better at being a decent person is in line with that.
Human nature. A sense of power is a reward to some. Having that direct connection to the company that controls the game they love would motivate many. Can you honestly say there are no current members who aren’t there for their perceived reward without any other care?
And this here is the fundamental difference between you and me. I believe differently. I believe in trying to communicate. I believe in trying to be better. I believe in calling people out when I think it needs to be done. If nobody stands up for what they believe in then the world would be a horrible place. I would hope that you’d see more from my point of view but you are entitled to your own views and opinions.
I try to be positive and optimistic. I’d be too pessimistic otherwise. I’ve lived through a life that no person should have to endure… So I try to be positive and perhaps that lends a naive idealistic rose tint to my way of expressing and encouraging of others but I think it’s worth it.