Status quo or solutions?

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Etch_Masuka

Is it? Is it really?

I mean really?

Really?

Honestly? I actually think it is. I don’t see many folks with just a few weeks in the game coming and telling everybody what’s wrong with the community. We see suggestions as to new player stuff, “perspectives from new players” and things like that, sure. But I can’t recall the last time that somebody less than six months into the game came here and decided that I wasn’t doing my job correctly and tried to give me advice. Hell, most veterans don’t do that.

@Das_Ankou

This is exactly the issue at hand. Do you know only how to attack? Do you only know how to compare? If someone says there is a problem do you look at the problem or do you look for a reason not to pay any attention? I point out that CSM members and the community need to do better and all you care about is how old this account is. Is this an alt? Could I just be using this account to chat and point out issues? Or are you choosing to jump to conclusions and not make any efforts at proper communication as I am accusing this community? For clarification I started playing EVE at least 16 years ago when I bought the game from Walmart back when you could buy a physical copy. I will say that I’ve not been as able to play the game consistently as I’d like and have been gone for at least six years. Measuring sizes just says one has an ego and likes pissing contests.

There are ten CSM members. Only two of them interactive with anybody on these forums. So when you come here and say things like “the CSM can and should do better” I take that personally because you’re either talking about me or Mike.

When someone says “there is a problem” I look at a variety of things, including how long this person has been playing. Because I’ve been told many, many times about how something is a problem, but the reality is that thing isn’t a problem at all, the person who is complaining doesn’t now basic things about how the game works, or is repeating something that many have complained about (like ganking) that is fundamental to the game, even if they personally don’t like it.

If you have been playing for 16 years, then why are you not posting on that account? Why are you using a 2 month old account that you’ve obviously been playing on, because it has a history?

@Das_Ankou

Then I can say that we disagree on what it means to “represent the players to the company” and that’s fine. I still see it as my place to try and improve those aspects of that I see as lacking and encouraging you and any other individual to do better at being a decent person is in line with that.

Are you intending to say that I’m not being a decent person right now?

@Das_Ankou

Human nature. A sense of power is a reward to some. Having that direct connection to the company that controls the game they love would motivate many. Can you honestly say there are no current members who aren’t there for their perceived reward without any other care?

“A sense of power…” is a great answer to the game “Tell me you have no idea what the CSM is or does without telling me you have no idea what the CSM is or does.”

I can honestly say there are no current members who are there for a perceived reward without any other care, and that’s including the ones I personally think are shitty at their jobs and the ones I don’t particularly like (there are some who are shitty at their jobs that I do like, and ones I don’t particularly like who are good at their jobs, btw).

@Das_Ankou

And this here is the fundamental difference between you and me. I believe differently. I believe in trying to communicate. I believe in trying to be better. I believe in calling people out when I think it needs to be done. If nobody stands up for what they believe in then the world would be a horrible place. I would hope that you’d see more from my point of view but you are entitled to your own views and opinions.

I also agree with communication. That’s why I’m the most communicative CSM member. That’s why I keep winning reelection, and why I keep winning awards for being the best CSM.

And it’s also why I’m wasting my time on a lovely Sunday afternoon responding to someone who thinks I’m not a decent human being.

[Das_Ankou]

@Brisc_Rubal

There are ten CSM members. Only two of them interactive with anybody on these forums. So when you come here and say things like “the CSM can and should do better” I take that personally because you’re either talking about me or Mike.

Well I think you can do better. I think all the CSM can do better. I also believe that if one can do better then one should endeavor to do better. The other CSM should (in my opinion) back you up in talking on the forums. So yes I think the CSM can and should do better. Do better at communication, interaction, representation, etc. I won’t begin to say I know precisely how but I will say that in my opinion the CSM can and should do better. If you see ways that you think I can be or do better feel free to holler and let me know. I may or may not agree with your opinion but I’ll look and see if perhaps you shed light on a change I should make or try to make.

@Brisc_Rubal

or is repeating something that many have complained about (like ganking) that is fundamental to the game, even if they personally don’t like it.

Oh ganking is needed if for no other reason than to police HC when a twat needs a spanking. I would like more options for trolling gankers though.

@Brisc_Rubal

If you have been playing for 16 years, then why are you not posting on that account? Why are you using a 2 month old account that you’ve obviously been playing on, because it has a history?

Changed emails while away and assumed I couldn’t recover my accounts. Wasn’t gonna recover my accounts but I got encouraged by a corp mate to at least try cause I might get them and loose nothing for trying. Got a few back but after hopping in to chat. Doesn’t make sense to change accounts now that I’m already making waves and having a conversation. New or old I think what I say has the same value. Besides buying a character was a thing and unless things have changed some rich noob can just buy an old character cause they want the old smell on them.

@Brisc_Rubal

Are you intending to say that I’m not being a decent person right now?

I’m saying at the very least you can be a more decent person. (I think everyone can be better in some way) At worst I’m grossly underestimating the flaws you contain but I’m working under the assumption that underneath everything you are worth having a conversation with and aren’t specifically a bad egg.

@Brisc_Rubal

“Tell me you have no idea what the CSM is or does without telling me you have no idea what the CSM is or does.”

Here’s my understanding on the CSM in a nutshell. A small portion of the players that CCP can talk to who are shackled by an NDA and having been voted for by the players are likely to have perspectives similar to the majority of players and as such give CCP a perspective from the players. I see that as a manageable interface between the company and the players at large that CCP fosters.

@Brisc_Rubal

I also agree with communication. That’s why I’m the most communicative CSM member. That’s why I keep winning reelection, and why I keep winning awards for being the best CSM.

And it’s also why I’m wasting my time on a lovely Sunday afternoon responding to someone who thinks I’m not a decent human being.

Perhaps I can encourage you then to improve the quality of your communication. you say you’re wasting your time but I am enjoying the conversation and thank you for talking with me. Also responding a day latter is fine. Go enjoy your day.

[Io_Koval]

@Das_Ankou

If you see ways that you think I can be or do better feel free to holler and let me know.

My suggestion: Less instructing, more doing. Go run for the next CSM. Make the difference, don’t just preach it. Anyone can come up with the idea, it’s execution that makes the difference.

[Das_Ankou]

@Etch_Masuka

Here’s an idea. How about you stand for CSM?

I would love to once I’ve finished addressing my medical needs and can actually reasonably do so.

@Etch_Masuka

Obviously with your enlightened views you are pretty much guaranteed to be elected by the player base?

No?

Do I sense sarcasm and a hint of troll! How delightful! Still you do realize that enlightenment usually means some individual is gonna try and squash the enlightened person. Just look to history. There are examples everywhere. Now I don’t see myself on as high a pedestal as you place me but if in some twisted and messed up way you’re right and I’m enlightened then you are just ironic.

@Etch_Masuka

Then how about shitting the f*ck up and letting the players that have been elected by the player base do their jobs…….

But you just said I was enlightened. Don’t you want me as CSM? Counter trolling fun aside let me ask you. Do you just like attention? Are you perhaps afraid I’m gonna disrupt your world with my ideas? Do you somehow think I am or have harmed you in some fashion? Cause I think I smell fear or at the very least a level of insecurity in your post. I’m happy to have you talk about your with you.

[Das_Ankou]

@Io_Koval

My suggestion: Less instructing, more doing. Go run for the next CSM. Make the difference, don’t just preach it. Anyone can come up with the idea, it’s execution that makes the difference.

If my medical issues will allow it then I will do so in the future. In the meantime this is an action I can take. I’m trying to engage in conversation and to get to the root and heart of various issues. By having these conversations I lay a foundation for a possible future where I can try to run. Do you think a nobody can win? At the very least I’d need some kind of recognition and awareness of various issues within and out of the game. I need at least a year of active participation within the current game and the forums before I think I’d have any chance of winning the popularity contest. (all votes are popularity contests in my opinion)

[Io_Koval]

@Das_Ankou

I’m trying to engage in conversation and to get to the root and heart of various issues

I think the heart of the broad and vague stuff you bring up – the theme being “if only everyone was open-minded” – is that you are viewing the status quo as a net negative that needs changing, when really it is a Chesterson Fence and you’ve convinced no one that you understand it.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Das_Ankou

Well I think you can do better. I think all the CSM can do better. I also believe that if one can do better then one should endeavor to do better. The other CSM should (in my opinion) back you up in talking on the forums. So yes I think the CSM can and should do better. Do better at communication, interaction, representation, etc. I won’t begin to say I know precisely how but I will say that in my opinion the CSM can and should do better. If you see ways that you think I can be or do better feel free to holler and let me know. I may or may not agree with your opinion but I’ll look and see if perhaps you shed light on a change I should make or try to make.

You’ve been back how long and you think we should do better? How do you even know how we’re doing at all? What exactly should we do better? We spent a year pounding on CCP to start doing things the players want, and they are finally doing that. We’ve pounded on them relentlessly to not do NFTs, and they’ve stopped talking about them. I spent a year crusading against the red dot (which you probably aren’t even aware of) and they finally made it removable. We’ve been at the forefront of reflecting the players desires, and we’ve made pretty good progress, all things considered.

What exactly is it you think we can do better?

As for what you can do to be better, I’ve already told you - stop talking, start listening. Stop assuming you know what’s going on because you’ve been back for two months.

@Das_Ankou

Changed emails while away and assumed I couldn’t recover my accounts. Wasn’t gonna recover my accounts but I got encouraged by a corp mate to at least try cause I might get them and loose nothing for trying. Got a few back but after hopping in to chat. Doesn’t make sense to change accounts now that I’m already making waves and having a conversation. New or old I think what I say has the same value. Besides buying a character was a thing and unless things have changed some rich noob can just buy an old character cause they want the old smell on them.

If you bought a character, that’s reflected in the corp history of the character that it was transferred to another account. A lot of folks judge you by the age of your character as a reflection on how long you’ve been in the game. I know I certainly look at it. I would give you a lot more benefit of the doubt knowing someone started EVE the same time I did, even if they had only come back a few months ago.

@Das_Ankou

I’m saying at the very least you can be a more decent person. (I think everyone can be better in some way) At worst I’m grossly underestimating the flaws you contain but I’m working under the assumption that underneath everything you are worth having a conversation with and aren’t specifically a bad egg.

Are you a native English speaker? Do you know how condescending what you just wrote is? Do you understand how off-putting it is to say something like this to a complete stranger?

@Das_Ankou

Here’s my understanding on the CSM in a nutshell. A small portion of the players that CCP can talk to who are shackled by an NDA and having been voted for by the players are likely to have perspectives similar to the majority of players and as such give CCP a perspective from the players. I see that as a manageable interface between the company and the players at large that CCP fosters.

Do yourself a favor and read the stuff over on the CSM - EVE Community page. Especially if you plan on running. There is nothing worse than a CSM candidate who doesn’t understand the point of the job.

@Das_Ankou

Perhaps I can encourage you then to improve the quality of your communication. you say you’re wasting your time but I am enjoying the conversation and thank you for talking with me. Also responding a day latter is fine. Go enjoy your day.

I’m sure you are. You’re insulting me over and over again and I’m still here, taking it. What a fool I can be. Thanks for your permission to enjoy my day.

[Xeux]

Hold on, Brisc. You have to get permission from everybody.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Das_Ankou

I try to be positive and optimistic. I’d be too pessimistic otherwise. I’ve lived through a life that no person should have to endure… So I try to be positive and perhaps that lends a naive idealistic rose tint to my way of expressing and encouraging of others but I think it’s worth it.

Ah. You laid it on too thick here.

Obv troll is obv sadly

@Das_Ankou

I would love to once I’ve finished addressing my medical needs and can actually reasonably do so.

Again, too thick bruv. You think no one would call you out on it cause the subject right

@Das_Ankou

If my medical issues will allow it then I will do so in the future

No you won’t Merely trolling Brisc on an alt you are.

[Mike_Azariah]

As the other CSM who lives in these here forums I figure this must be an attack on me since @Brisc_Rubal is the chosen one.

@Brisc_Rubal

I also agree with communication. That’s why I’m the most communicative CSM member. That’s why I keep winning reelection, and why I keep winning awards for being the best CSM.

see?

All joking aside? I think Brisc does a damn fine job and takes a LOT more heat than I do. I am serving my 5th term and have been playing steadily since 2008 (counts on fingers) so 14 years come this September.

Can we be ‘better’? Always. But in what way? We do have an NDA and CCP does not expect us to bring forward every damn fool idea that some person on the internet brings forward. It is not ‘ageist’ to look to a posters experience/time in the game because it gives us a hint of how long their memory is, do they remember what has come before the current iteration. Have they been around long enough to start thinking about second and third tier spinoffs and ramifications of a ‘simple change’. An angel cries every time some arm chair gamer says ‘simple code change that should take no time at all, the devs are just lazy’.

But back to the communication, maybe with an example or two.

A change happens, some of the player base get mad. They pick a dev they think is THE ONE who screwed everything up and demand his termination. The suggest that WE, the CSM quit en masse unless this dev is fired. (Yes, this has been asked, before) Threadnaughts grow and . . . what communication would you expect from the CSM? We do not have anything to do with the hiring an firing of Devs and we know damn well that very few changes are ONE GUY/GAL. The Devs are teams, groups of coders, producers, etc. But sometimes one guy steps forward to write the blog or news announcement so everything is their fault.

So the CSM, in this instance, tries to find where the pain points are (or is showing that they predicted this outcry and now trying to walk it back) We do not call for the termination nor do we engage with the over the top rage monsters. We listen to the folks who are explaining why the idea is bad and we take what we know from inside the NDA and combine it with the complaints to see if what was done was actually a reasonable choice. Thing is? WE cannot ‘show our Math’ to the players.

Brisc and I will let you know, here and in other social media, that we are listening and maybe say what we are asking of CCP (Red dot leaps to mind) But we do not make any promises because we are not the deciders, just advocates.

2nd example: A New player asks when we will be landing on planets, walking around. Tells the CSM that we need to take this to CCP because other games already have this (No Mans Sky) and so so should Eve. WE say no, that is not what this game IS and they get mad, calling us gatekeepers or enemies of the future of the game. Now what comes next depends on the specifics of the encounter but quite often we have a sealion who expects us to debate them at length. No. Brisc has a job and spends more than enough time here as it is. Me? I am retired but know better than to get dragged into some arguments unless I decide to write some semi reasonable wall of text that then can be quoted out of context and back on the merry go round we go for another lap.

Any person can do better. Not one of us is perfect (sorry Brisc, you’re close but not quite) but we try with various levels of success.

The election for the next CSM is coming up (No, I do not know exactly when) and I encourage any who can do better to step up. Good Luck

m

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

@Mike_Azariah

An angel cries every time some arm chair gamer says ‘simple code change that should take no time at all, the devs are just lazy’.

stealing for future use

[Byoo_Cephalus]

Somebody goes through hell in earth, battles life threatening medical problems, becomes a war hero, fights his way up from homelessness and prison, and finally finds five minutes to come pontificate about Eve…AND THE CSM DOESN’T EVEN LISTEN TO HIM! No wonder it’s such a crazy mixed up world!

[Brisc_Rubal]

Man, it’s amazing how many replies he got from two CSM members when we weren’t listening.

Everybody has a story. That story doesn’t entitle anybody to belittle someone else.

[Max_Deveron]

is this an alt of Cherti Stardust?

and if it is…

then is Cherti and Das actually maybe Salvos in disguise? or Balos?

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Das_Ankou

Where is the communication?

As someone who has tried to have reasonable discussions with people most of the time, I can tell you why there is a communication breakdown. People come up with these ideas they think will be great.

But the moment you start asking questions about their idea, they take it as a personal attack on themselves and get defensive. At that point, communication fails because someone is protecting their sacred cow and refuses to engage in an adult discussion.

People need to remember that someone asking questions or even pointing out flaws in their idea isn’t a personal attack. But people want to protect their sacred cows. I’ve thrown up ideas for other games and when people asked questions, I didn’t take it personal… I answered the question. If someone pointed out a flaw, I’d try to talk about how to address the flaw. Again, constructive discussion. And many times, I ended up agreeing the idea wasn’t as good as I thought initially.

People need to remember that any idea they have has a lot of hurdles to get by. The first being is this idea easily exploited by the playerbase… and the second (and perhaps most important question): how long will it take for CCP to see a return on their investment?

New skins for daily log-in, pretty quick RoI… a whole new system of using d-scan to triagulate a ships location instead of using combat probes (someone suggested this)? Months… if not years because of the amount of code required.

Communication breaks because people don’t want to accept their “brilliant” idea is not that good.