And in chess too you can set up an ‘ambush’, set up bait they might take and hope that the other won’t see in time that taking it will lead to a bad position where they might lose a queen or worse, the game.
But you’re right, the two games aren’t the same in many ways, they’re not even the same genre. What they do share is that they both are games you play against other people and that you can hit and hurt those other people by taking away their pieces while you play to win.
When you start the game you decide you wish to take part in such a game where your chess pieces or EVE ships can go lost. And it’s not unethical if people take those things, because it’s all part of the game you decided to play.
I know a lot about chess, because I play at the CM level. These are not the traps I’m talking about. I’m talking about ethical traps, so to speak. You trust someone, and they betray you. When I start playing EVE, I don’t sign up for betrayal from friends, corpmates, members of your faction. And I also hope that I’ll be given time to prepare, to learn the game, to develop my skills. However, this is exactly the kind of behavior that is encouraged in the game. I remember an old EVE video about a man who betrayed his corporation by stealing its assets. It was done out of revenge for him being caught at a camp, on a jump gate. And now in many corporations people don’t trust each other. What is the point of these social experiments? People are already corrupted enough, there is no need to make them worse.
It’s true, betrayal isn’t part of chess while it is part of EVE.
But why are you complaining about betrayal in EVE? It’s intentionally part of the game.
There is an entire genre of social games where betrayal is part of the gameplay. Do you remember the popularity of Among Us?
Just because this betrayal can happen does not mean it is not ethical. It’s all done within the context of a game that people start to play with others knowing that betrayal can happen. Betrayal can be fun and is part of the gameplay.
If you don’t wish to play a game where people you thought you trusted can stab you in the back there are many games where this cannot happen, like for example again chess.
EVE allows betrayal.
EVE allows scams.
EVE allows PvP combat in any part of space even if you somehow did not expect it.
Your choices are to accept it’s part of the game you play, or to find another game that is more up to your tastes.
No, I don’t agree that betrayal is a part of EVE. In any case, it’s a regular MMO, where everything is based on trust. Otherwise, power blocks could not exist. Now pvp is allowed in any part of space. And I propose to allocate a part of space for players who do not like pvp. What’s wrong with that? It will not change much in the current state of things, since pvp in highsec has little effect on player income. Newbies earn little, and experienced players know how to avoid PvP. And the loss of one ship means nothing to them. Protecting newbies will lead to an inevitable influx of new players into the game. Then you can think about canceling the game in several windows, which now creates the illusion of a large online.
There is no trust without betrayal. If someone cannot mechanically betray you, does it really matter that you trust them? Or could they just as well be a randomly assigned ally who cannot stab your back anyway?
I have played many multiplayer online games. While some games may have team mates who troll and annoy you, none of those games have people who can literally play against you and make you lose many hours that you have worked for.
As a result of this difference in game possiblities I merely acknowledge my team mates’ existence in most games where betrayal does not exist, but only in EVE do I really trust them to not betray me.
Without possibilities of betrayal there is no trust.
Well then you disagree with the game itself.
EVE explains in many places to new players that betrayal of trust is part of the game. For example:
Disagreeing that betrayal is part of EVE is like disagreeing that white has the first move in chess. It’s one of the first things a new player learns.
You could convince other newbies perhaps of your delusions, but right now it seems you’re only deluding yourself if you keep insisting that betrayal is not part of EVE.
What’s wrong is that safe space goes against the idea of EVE. EVE requires destruction to keep the economy running. Ships need to be destroyed for ship builders to make a profit. Ore needs to be used for miners to earn ISK.
A part of space that has no destruction can only be balanced if it also has no production, otherwise people could just abuse that part of space to only mess up the economic balance for the rest of the game by injecting production without destruction.
But that’s just temporary protection. Eventually even a new player will have learned the basics enough to stand on their own feet and face the dangers of New Eden.
So if newbies are already protected, how would ‘protecting newbies’ cause an extra influx of new players? They’re already protected!
An alt in a corvette can bring down a whole alliance. Blind Trust in New Eden is a dangerous thing. PVP in New Eden is not just about shooting other players ships. and I don’t trust you either.
I want to clarify. No, I meant something else. Not a ban on destroying ships. Ships in systems where suicide attacks are prohibited can be destroyed by NPCs, as a result of duels, as a result of receiving the status of suspect, as a result of factional wars. I haven’t thought about what kind of mechanism it will be yet. It could be a timer for a loot container, protection of loot by Concord from plundering (special container color), just a clause in the rules prohibiting such actions, impossibility of locking a target, return of lost property. The concept itself is important to me, I don’t discuss details. I heard about a rule that forbids attacks in newbie systems. By the way, here’s a precedent for you. Has something changed in the game’s economy? Please use these systems to make a profit. They are not completely devoid of economy, are they? However, this seems inconsistent and insufficient. What does the epic arc have to do with it? Personally, I am not interested in it.
Why do you want a system where PvP is not allowed?
(“Think of the newbies!” is not a valid argument here - I have shown that newbies are already protected in their first month in the game by the current rules.)
What is it that such ‘no PvP’ systems would add to the game?
Why do you want it?
Newbie protection is the most important thing. Are you asking newbies to sit in newbie systems for a month? There is nothing to do there after completing the tutorial. They should not be attacked when doing agent missions in highsec, farming green anomalies, scanning in highsec, cannot be attacked when exiting the abysses, cannot be attacked when transporting goods to Zhita, Amarr, etc. Why do experienced players need this? For the same reasons as for newbies. I hate pvp and I want to do my own farming. For example, get veldspar. I’m not talking about myself, but about people focused on pve.
No, newbies can leave newbie systems if they want.
But they can also stay around protected in the newbie systems while learning the basics of the game. I did that myself until after a couple of weeks I decided I knew enough and went to null sec to learn how to survive and have PvP fun.
Nothing stops new players from leaving the protected systems if they want to venture forth, but if they feel like they still don’t know the basics of combat or travel well enough they have plenty of time to learn that protected before they play the game.
Newbies need protected systems to learn the basics before they play the game.
The few protected systems are little, as you said, but it’s plenty to learn the basics.
Experienced players should already know the basics and have no reason to be in protected systems. In fact, those systems aren’t ‘protected systems’ for them because they’re past 30 days old.
And this is good - once you’re experienced enough you know the basics of how to survive in EVE and also know that EVE is a ruthless universe where you can get attacked.
Experienced players who still want protected systems can start a new character every month and forever play within protected systems like that.
If you think it’s ridiculous to do so, I agree. I also think it’s ridiculous that an experienced player asks for protected systems.
You’ve been around long enough, you know what EVE is about.
It’s easy to learn how to stay alive, and if you’re not willing to put in that effort then EVE may not be your kind of game.
I don’t understand why we are going around in circles. I know that newbies can go anywhere: to the Pochven, to nullsec, to wormhole. This can be done on the first day of the game. I am not talking about the time needed to learn the basics of the game. If I mentioned this, then I expressed myself inaccurately. I am talking about the very possibility of playing without pvp. Do you think that there are few people in the game who want to get this opportunity? Why do you impose your way of playing on them, repeating that EVE is not for them, not for PvE lovers? Are you saying that EVE is not my game? Of course, it is not the game that completely suits me. I like everything about it except the PvP system. I have three options: leave the game, stay and accept what I categorically do not like, or offer my own solution. I am currently implementing the third option.
It seems to me that you can’t speak for everyone, since you haven’t conducted surveys on this game. It has already been mentioned here that EVE is not only PvP. Moreover, even if by some miracle changes are made to the game, absolutely nothing will change for you personally. If this is not the case, then you can argue this.
But at the heart of EVE for 20 fkin years its been pvp as a main focus. I prefer it stay that way. You want consensual pvp? Play eve echoes. You can opt out of pvp there.
I assume that EVE players play EVE because they like playing EVE, or at least don’t dislike the game enough to play something else.
I have not conducted a survey on that, but I’m pretty sure that conclusion is solid.
This is correct. EVE also is PvE while you can get attacked in PvP, or mining ore while you can get attacked in PvP. EVE is doing industry while your industrial complex can get attacked by PvP and is about exploring space while you can get attacked in PvP. It’s about competing on the market in PvP while your competitors can get intel on your characters to take them out in PvP.
EVE indeed isn’t only about PvP, but it sure is at the core of everything in this game as PvP is the driving force behind the destruction that keeps this entire game running.
Many players and even some corporations choose to avoid PvP entirely while they can get attacked in PvP. It’s a valid playstyle, but impossible if PvP cannot happen.
It’s like saying a game is about trust when there is no opportunity to betray the trust. Completely meaningless.
Staying alive in a ruthless universe also loses most of it’s meaning if the only danger is scripted from predictable NPCs. People are smart, they can outplay you, which is what makes a game like EVE unpredictable and fun.
If you don’t like that sort of game, why play it?
If by some miracle a part of EVE becomes a ‘no PvP allowed zone’ then this most certainly affects me because it draws in players like you who complain about the existence of PvP in this PvP game.
The game’s driving force may not only be destruction. It may be the usual wear and tear of equipment, which, by the way, is in EVE in terms of faction lenses. You don’t like players like me? I think the feeling is mutual. I can’t help it. Either the game will degrade until there is one strongest PvP player left, or it needs an influx of new players.
There is no wear and tear in EVE that cannot easily be repaired, only destruction.
It sounds like you want a different game?
You are trying to change a game that I and many other EVE players like, which also is a game you dislike into a game you like and a game I dislike.
I find that selfish and irrational.
Yes, I dislike your request.
For a 22 year old game with a stable playerbase I don’t see it dying any time soon, unless some drastic changes are made which chase away the existing playerbase.
Try to repair fractional lenses for lasers. Good luck. I will not comment on the rest, as there are essentially only emotions, but no arguments. I and the majority of players, we, etc. I do not know for which part of the players you are authorized to speak. Here you express only your personal opinion. I am forced to interrupt the discussion for some time.
It’s objective when I say I like this game. There are many games, I like a few of them and EVE is one of the games I like.
You dislike games without 100% safety. Or at least, that is what I understand from what you said in this thread. EVE is a game without 100% safety. You dislike that about EVE.
Why are you not looking to play another game that fits your tastes?
There are many games on the market and surely one is fun for you. You don’t have to change this one into a game I dislike just so you can enjoy it.
Tell me, please, are you a computer games sales manager? If not, then why are you doing something that is not your business, advertising other games to me? I like any content in EVE, except for the situation in highsec. You won’t believe it, but I like factional wars, and I earned 500k LP a night there. To be honest, what irritates me the most is the crowd of suicides hanging out in Zhita. I have lags from them, and I will lose an expensive ship because of this someday. And I need this place for the game. I even thought about moving to Amarr because of this. Well, everything else I wrote here is also important for me. I emphasize again. I also like dangerous content and it is necessary. I am not satisfied with the situation in highsec. That’s it, I’m leaving, sorry.
and I don’t trust you either.