Tengu for wormhole site running

PvE Gameplay Center PvE Ships & Modules
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Oï !
I wanted to ask : I recently heard someone talking about how Tengu was left a bit behind Loki for null sec ratting (outside of Guristas space, of NPC weak to Kinetic damage) because of the fact that Loki missiles subsystems give bonuses to missiles explosion and base velocity, and launchers rate of Fire, and can use each missiles with equal effectiveness, compared to Tengu and it’s favour for Scourge missiles. But, if it’s true that Loki tend to have better application in null as long as it’s not Caldari space, but does it perform as well in wormhole as Tengu does ? If yes, what is the maximum wormhole level I can try ?

Thanks !

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I wouldnt go larger than a c3 with a tech 3 cruiser… perhaps some of the c4 sites can be ran, but it would be timely… and I think the distance the npc spawn is rather too great for ships with med range projection. IE battleships and larger guns/ cruiser missiles, work well for c4. just my .02

I havent tried my legion fit in a c4 yet but it blasts c3 sites really easily and quickly. hardly any ammo to carry around, and it lasts a bit too, and like all the tech three you get cov ops and interdictor nullifier subs…

Tengu can tank c4 sites easy but like a drake in a lv 4 mission it just takes time. It can be done though. risk vs isk, I prefer to run smaller or easier sites to some degree over the harder sites because I get more sites in per hour. :slight_smile:

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Thanks you, you’re helping me =)
I heard about those big wormhole corporations that lives in C6 where a Dreadnought is the daily ratting ship (well, there’s the Capital Escalation thinggy), so I wanted to know how well those Tech III cruisers worked in J-Space. Currently none of my characters use Amarr ships, so my Energy Turrets skills are at the lowest, so Legion is not for me ^^
I think I’ll follow the train for Tengu to do C3 sites quickly and keep using a 100MN VNI (soon an Ishtard) for nullsec ratting when there’s no connections around and the home system is (as always) devoid of any combat sites.

Thanks you Imustbecomfused =)

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Its not just the missle bonuses. Loki has a better built-in resistance profile, basically no hole. It lets you fit for Omni tank instead of specific tank while using roughly same amount of modules. powergrid, CPU, etc. Loki also has better cap and cap regen so your shield booster will last longer whereas you may need to fit a battery or rig or a module on a Tengu to run the same booster for same amount of time.

And to top it off, it has slightly better movement, so a bit better speed tank.

So in light of all that, why fly a Tengu when you can fly a Loki ? Unless of course you are skileld for Tengu and won’t get full use of a Loki.

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By what you are saying, Loki is better than Tengu not only with Missiles subsystem, but in general, with all those resists and speed that the caldari cruiser doesn’t have ? If yes, then maybe Loki will complete wormholes sites faster than a Tengu will do, but now, if I chose Loki over Tengu, will I be more efficient by choosing a missile Loki with heavy or heavy assault missiles or an autocannon/artillery Loki ?

Thanks =)

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Just to give you an idea. TL;DR it does not matter, solo you are dead in WH anyway. If you want ISK, any lost ships will destroy your ISK/hour ratio.

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Only if you get caught tho ^^

Also, I’ll try to don a autocannons Loki fit for C3 wormholes (I heard C4 sites are way harder and aren’t worth to try with a Strategic Cruiser). Here what I came up with, give me your opinions please =)

[Loki, C3 Wormhole]

Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Propulsion - Wake Limiter
Loki Defensive - Augmented Durability
Loki Core - Dissolution Sequencer

425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I, Republic Fleet EMP M
Core Probe Launcher I, Sisters Core Scanner Probe
[UTILITY HIGH]

Gist B-Type Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner

Damage Control II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

PYFA get me a small 210 DPS, 24.9k of EHP and 373.5 EHP/s. I guess there’s room for a lot of improvements, and maybe I’ll do much DPS with better Gunnery skills, or simply by using Missiles. If you want my character’s skills here they are : Sasha Viderzei.

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Here you can see, that bare minimum, what you should be able to tank in C3 is 669 DPS. All data rely on 700 DPS of instant damage. Your fit will lack not only tank and DPS, but also range control (10MN afterburner), which is lethal for autocannons, that has tiny optimal and often miss in even half faloff range.

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I didn’t played much with PVE sadly (instead of training myself in low level missions, I directly joined the hype train in null sec, then wormhole space --"). If you could give me a fit with Autocannons that would work better than this one (should be easy to do better -_-), that’d be great :slight_smile:

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Any fit with autocannons will mean you will have to chase NPC (cruiser sleepers will try to keep 30-45 km range and neut / rep. / DPS from there far) and lose time doing so…
[Loki, WH PvE autocannons]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Co-Processor II

Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Explosive Deflection Field II
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery
Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field
100MN Analog Booster Afterburner
Dread Guristas Thermal Dissipation Field
EM Ward Field II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Loki Core - Immobility Drivers
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Defense Node
Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Propulsion - Wake Limiter

Hobgoblin II x5

If you put enough implants / boosters into your char, you can try this one. But believe me - wasting time in WH chasing scattering NPC is no fun…

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Alright. Maybe an artillery fit will work better than a close range Loki ?

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Since artillery is harder to fit and fits are already too tight, it will work worse. Smaller arties will not give enough DPS and you need dual web to track frigates:
[Loki, PvE arty]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
100MN Analog Booster Afterburner
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Loki Core - Immobility Drivers
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Defense Node
Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Propulsion - Wake Limiter

Hobgoblin II x5

Very expensive and very underpowered. Even some T5 Abyss fitted Gilas will work better for the same price…

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I see. For what you said, Loki (or simply Projectile Turrets) aren’t optimal to run wormhole sites ?

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By the way @erg_cz, I uploaded your autocannon fit in PYFA with Strategical Cruiser to I and each subsystems skills to IV (V for the Offensive one), but I only get 453 DPS (without drones). I think you might have better support skills than I do ^^

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Well, I think only pulse lasers in Legion are worth trying in C3. Check the killboard to see, what is dying in C3. PvE chips will not have any scram / disruptor fitted. Maybe there are other players , who has very different experience with turret ships in WH, but my opinion is, that it is Propless Pulse Paladin in C4 and 10mn AB HAM Loki in C3 work the best from ISK/risk/time point of view.

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Alright, thanks =)
Although, if I remember well Heavy Assault Missile are really optimized for close range engagement, wouldn’t they have the same problem for hitting cruisers, like autocannons ?

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As a matter of fact they do. But they still apply full damage at 20 km range. Heavy mssiles will not have enough DPS to finish anomaly in reasonable amount of time. Rapid Light Missile Launchers are tricky because you will have long reload time and with very high rate of fire you will have many missiles flying to already dead NPC…
To use HAM you need web and manual piloting to get into position, where you still can hit current spawn and be ready to open fire to the next one as soon as it appears.

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Alright. After some talk with the guys I live with in a wormhole, yolo-ing in a C3 wormhole with an expansive T3C isn’t the best idea. I think I’ll come back later for that ^^

And about your idea of the Pulse Paladin, not much for me, I would love to play Marauders but the C1 I live in limit me to medium sized ship =/

Thanks anyway, you really helped me =)

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The fit from killboard is able to reach 45 km range with Javelin missiles. And 45 km is the max range cruisers will run from you (preserver one, that have remote reps…). Its battleships, who run further. So you will have to call primaries carefully.

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I may have failed to point this out, and wanted to refrain from over stepping my claims but this was kinda my point. Its always a trade of some sorts… Projectiles give you all dmg type selection.

Hindsight is 20/20. I wish I went amarr for pve. period. There is really no other reason to train the other factions for pve imo, none of the other races give you much more benefit over amarr, keeping PVE in mind ONLY… you can run the same missions, belt rats, anoms, or ded with all faction hulls comparibly, perhaps with variations in fit but the main GAIN from lasers in pve is the range and projection. Which is my point here in this post, Projectiles was my first train and I trained it up to max. Musty, this character here, is my Minny main. I have three more for each of the other races…

I think pvp, the dmg selection is more important. pve, you just want to be able match the dmg types, you get the same missions and rats and all that in each of hte npc factions so, really there are differences between them but they are more or less the same differences.

Loki is okay… for pve… I used it intensely. When the tengu and proteus was king, the loki was still my pve boat for nullsec…

missiles give you decent range and damage type but it is not instant damage. so you will likely take on a reactionary role in your play style. simply because of hte mechanics in game. Instant damage, in my opinion, is much faster when counting isk per hour. Prjectiles are instant damage but lack the range the lasers have. hybrids… well, they have their place for stupid close range and stupid high dps… beating the other dmg systems .

You always should match the tools for the job. c3 wh sites are an easy for tengu and legion, as they do not have to boat around the grid to keep their weapons in range. the other two systems, hybrids and projectiles, require you to maneuver into position… to apply that damage.

When I run c4 sites with my vargurs, I fit a mwd and mjd fit… so I can control range… if i cant control range, i cannot do damage. the whole time Im taking damage… so you have to think, what is more important.

I prefer to tank with damage. So projection is my first priority. then comes the tank and cap and all that. Since I realized this transition, which is when I got t2 trained in amarr systems, my pve has skyrocketed. :slight_smile:

I know you dont have the skills yet, but being you are choosing now, and are young enough it wont hurt to change course. if your goal is to keep pve as a main activity, then i suggest switching to amarr offensive systems. youll be armor tanking, and have a much easier time dealing damage, and clearing sites, which will let you focus elsewhere.

I have to jump my vargurs all around the room to make ten min a site… if I sit there and bastion up it takes half an hour… so theres the difference between not keeping range and using falloff, or keeping range and applying as much dmg as possible. that is with miny guns there,

the paladins I can mjd and make mistakes and still have room to spare, and always, deal 100% dmg…

I love the tegnu, I love the loki, the legion is my new fav for sub c4 sites… but the paladin. man… I cant tell you how much I wish I trained this before ever thinking the other races… :confused: and thats only because I love pve too… and it is one of my main activities here.