Fair enough. Hardened probably works.
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@Arrendis The Amarr population that escaped the old world was not large. It took a good deal of time between the move to the Amarr island on Athra before they came into contact with non-Amarr. The Amarr were also settled on an island and did not come into contact with non-Amarr populations until they met the Udorians around three thousand years ago and realized that the evils of the old world had followed them to the new one. It is at this point that the Reclaiming officially began.
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Persecution by infidels lead the Amarr people to flee Assimia to the island of Amarr. People were not, in fact, getting along fine.
You are looking at āwarā too plainly. Yes, there was a state of war ever since the Apostasy started the cascade of evil and Godās creations were divided into the pure and impure. The Reclaiming is a defensive action - it is a defense of Godās world, a need to undo the loss and corruption of Godās creations and restore them to wholesome unity with God.
It seems odd to think that if āthe infidelsā were being so successful in their persecution, theyād still be unable (or unwilling) to track the movements of the Amarr colonists.
Persecution, on the other hand, is often a perceived state to whch the aggrieved convince themselves theyāre being subjected, when in truth, no actual persecution exists. This is especially true of religious groups with more hierarchic or restrictive customs and mores than the larger societies in which they exist. Often, they develop a tendency to believe themselves to be āpersecutedā when the larger societies simply donāt agree with them, or deny them the authority to force others to conform to their demands.
Is there any evidence of this persecution other than the necessarily subjective accounts of the Amarr?
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@Arrendis If we assume for a moment that the contemporary scholarly reconstructions of early New Eden history are even close to correct (which is highly unlikely, in itās own right, as those scholars are the first to admit), Amarrās move to Athra occurred right around the time that the EVE Gate blew up. Asking for a highly detailed standard of evidence for things that occurred on the old world is a bit absurd. The records you demand would be on the other side of the EVE gate.
The conflict between the non-Amarr colonists and the Amarr on the continent of Assimia, on the other hand, seems to be quite well attested by the cultures involved. And the move away from the other populations on Athra to Amarr Island (which is now covered by Dam-Torsad) is incontestable fact.
You know pretty well when persecution exists. You donāt just imagine it. And you donāt move an entire nation of refugees somewhere if there isnāt good reason for them to be fleeing. There is also physical evidence for the migration of the Amarr people - landmarks and such - which backs up the accounts of events recorded in Scripture.
Many people do, in fact, construct entire narratives of systemic victimization of their subgroups when non-exists. Napkins, for example, was never āpersecutedā on these boards, though he claimed such to have been happening. Ditto people like They Who Shall Not Be Namedā¢ and Matari Ronin.
Yes, it happens. And when people doing that wind up on the same side of things and get together, they reinforce one anotherās victimization complexes.
They would also exist in the records of colonists and colonies not settled by the Amarr people. Records of laws forbidding activities pertaining to the faith we now know as the Amarr faith, records of unrest and suspicion of individuals harboring such beliefs, etc. If it were such a matter of persecution, there would be indications of it, prohibitions against the faith, in the earliest records of places like Gallente and Caldari Prime, in the most ancient records of the Joveā¦
You donāt get systemic oppression across almost all of humanity without leaving evidence of it across almost all of humanity.
Sure. I have no trouble believing that there was conflict between the Amarr on Athra and the other colonists on Athra. But if this conflict is a manifestation of an earlier āwarā that extends back well beyond the EVE Gate Diasporaā¦ there should be evidence of it. And if the origins of the conflict lie on Athra, then how are the descendants of people who were never on Athra responsible for the actions of people they were never connected to?
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You will find that there are constant records of conflict between believers and non-believers in the fragmentary evidence that survives on pre-history that exist throughout the cluster. Whether every last one of those refers to conflict with Amarr is less certain, but there were certainly major wars of religion.
With the possible exception of the at best inaccessible Jovian archives, the Amarr records are the most carefully preserved and the most robust of the archives on the matter of prehistory, and they were proven correct on issues like the original calendar year. So Iām afraid they probably have the clearest historical evidence that you are going to get.
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If you want to know more, I am sure that the scholars at Hedion University who specialize in the Historical Gheinok would be happy to talk to you in utterly exhaustive detail about every last source we have on the subject.
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Welcome back, Lord Admiral Lokāri, youāve been missed.
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Major wars of religion doesnāt necessarily mean the Amarr faith was at all involved, or that those wars were part of a coherent, consistent persecution of the faithful. They could just as easily have been wars between sects, as well as wars instigated by religious oppression on the part of the believers.
As for Amarrās records being the most carefully preservedā¦ itās also unavoidably true that the records of the Amarr are the ones most likely to have been carefully ācuratedā to ensure they align with the interests of the powerful, over the centuries.
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I would be surprised if they did all refer to Amarr. But you cannot disprove the idea that some of them might have. That is kind of the issue with pre-history, itās all speculation and could-have-been. You are asking for a degree of positive evidence that would be reasonable if we were talking about the Matari war, but is just not within reach for 15,000 years ago using any ārationalā approach.
There is also nothing that disproves the Amarr narrative, however. So the Amarr narrative is a possible one following historical principles alone.
Also, if you think we would throw away records that disagree with our own understanding, just because they disagree, you misunderstand the Amarr approach to material concerning the Gheinok Exodus. As a culture we tend to hoard records and books, rather than destroy them. We also understand the place of historical analysis as a way of better understanding the context and meaning of holy worlds. When done properly, it does not challenge faith, but rather deepens it.
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So you have records of us from before you invaded saved? Cause I clearly remember our monuments and such being destroyedā¦ Then again that history would be inconvenient.
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Most likely, though I would expect the volumes that survived the Rebellions to be moldering, forgotten, in some Holderās library.
And I find it astonishing that you clearly remember anything at all about the events of a thousand years ago.
Given what I have seen of your culture, I find it hard to believe that any records or books which refute the narrative your rulers wished to set out would have been permitted to survive. Instead, my experience tells me it is far more likely that a society built around obedience and adherence to doctrine would simply work to ensure that works survive which preserve the appearance of heterodoxy without directly challenging the core message.
As for the Amarr narrative being possibleā¦ certainly itās possible. But the Amarr narrative is the one that includes an assertion of an extraordinary claim, a claim that both invokes and relies upon an occurrence that fits no scientific model, hard or soft, that humanity currently accepts[1]. Further, that claim endows the claimants with not just special license, but direct obligation to run roughshod over the concerns of others. The effect of this obligation is that the Amarr claim is the one that does not tolerate open-ended, peaceful coexistence.
As a result of both the extraordinary claim, and the consequences of that claimās obligations, the Amarr narrative is one which must be considered suspect until independently-credible evidence is available.
- While Amarr theology may offer a model in which the extraordinary claim fits perfectly (ie: āGod did itā), in order to be a credible scientific model, one of the requirements is that the claim be falsifiable. In other words, it must be something that can be tested. Unless you have some incredible breakthrough the rest of us donāt know about, testing āGod did itā isnāt possible. Thus, a theological model is not a valid scientific model.
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Well, the fact that the Amarr glassed our planet and destroyed our monuments, culture, and historical records is something that is well documented. So saying that we remember it doesnāt mean that we were actually there for it.
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Necessary? Maybe. Sure, I guess. Keeping in mind that Templis Dragonaurs would definitely and proudly describe themselves that way before going and pushing around some half-blood like me, or, you know, letting the sea into an underwater city or starting an insurrection against the State because they donāt want to have any filthy war hero Intaki living near them.
Some folk like that might be necessary. Some just make things worse.
AAAAAH I WANT ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD!!!*
Does that mean itāll happen soon? Or that itās even very dangerous to live near me? Probably if Iām approaching it thoughtfully it just means Iāll be a pretty serious businessperson and probably be working hard at whatever it is Iām doing. It might get more dangerous if I actually get close to achieving my ambition, but, that might take a while.
It doesnāt feel to me like ambition is inherently wrong, even if it has potential to lead to ugly things. The Amarr (and Gallente), at least, care a little about what happens to people who arenāt their own. Thatās not something Iām really in a position to say is a bad thing, as it could be said Iāve been exploiting exactly that quality. My own people ā¦ mostly really donāt care about those outside their circle (and that applies whether you mean the Caldari or Achura).
Do yours?
Itās not clear to me that indifference makes a good neighbor.
*in case thereās a question, no, I donāt.
Ms. Vess, hearing you say this worries me a lot. I joined PY-RE for a similar reason (less sophisticated, though, maybe): to prove my strength, to myself among others. It turned out I was a reasonably efficient killer (yay?) but ā¦
ā¦ it kind of chewed bits out of my soul.
Of course, the damage wasnāt really very visible to me until I went and visited a place with a hugely different outlook on the value of life, but, I canāt at all say that it wasnāt real. It made me sick. Even now, how much has grown back, and how much is me just getting accustomed to being as damaged a person as I am?
Itād make me so sad to see that same thing happen to someone whose thoughtfulness and perception on, even, like, moral issues I kind of admire. Maybe youāre better armored, I guess. But Iām not sure anymore that itās a good path to take, if you still have much āselfā to lose.
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Demonstrably false. Their entire society is built around subjugating and consuming all other people. You keep pretending it isnāt so, but it remains an inescapable fact. Even if you have to close your eyes and pretend really hard in order to make your chosen loyalties more palatable to yourself.
Happening as we speak. Raids and aggression is a daily occurrence and youāre well aware of it.
Given what is going on in the border zones? ā¦ yeah, itās pretty damn fuckinā dangerous. As we speak thereās raids and violent horrors being perpetrated by your chosen friends and loyalties.
You keep talking as if they are rational actors, when they demonstrably never have been. As a society, they have never stopped aggressively pursuing violent and complete subjugation of all other human beings. This has never stopped. Not even Kuvakei and his ilk has managed to be this great a threat to all other humans, and again, you know all of this so very well.
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Miz, considering how thoroughly youāve misinterpreted what I said, I have no choice but to assume youāre being purposefully disingenuous. (lol.)
Try again. Or, better, donāt.
Ms. Teinhyr? (AKA āPerson Iād much rather talk to?ā)
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I dont understand how it matters when it happens, when it is certain that it will happen. Do you think it wise to keep your hand in a kettle until the water boils? Or should you rather figure out how to turn off the heater, or remove the water, or the entire kettle, one way or another.
Weāre not talking ambition, weāre talking about a ādivine missionā to conquer everything these people see. These diversionary topics are getting tiresome and feel to me just intentional intellectual dishonesty. Like you know that the Empire is at its very roots sick, but you just wonāt or canāt admit it.
The Reclaiming merely paused, and thatās less than two centuries ago, barely a blink of an eye in the Empireās history.
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