The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out

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2823

Well, as I said, the only purpose served by wardecs is to destroy structures. There are some NPC ways to deal with structure spam (FAI, inactive structures being despawned and a fee being charged to retrieve them from “storage”) but at some point or another, if someone wants a structure, must be ready to defend it.

Obtaining an advantage must have a price, else players can just use 3rd party structures and pay a fee or it.

I am the carebearest of carebears, but i agree that having a structure is an advantge and must come for a price. I am not willing to pay that price so I never ever considered owning a structure (although i would like to own a player house, but that structure would have zero economical impact to compensate for it).

And all in all, grinding structures is a chore and that behavioral impairment would also limit non-mutual wardecs. People would have to be PAID for it, unless they just aimed to “fight the white knights” or become white knigsts themselves as per my proposal.

Also, and by the way, whatever is done, the CONCORD warning about wardec should include links to help pages, so players could learn what is a wardec and what does it mean and what can they do. Currently the warning is both obscure and ominous: “hostlities can start”, go and figure what does that mean? Will they kill your ships in stations?? Who are those guys? And why did they declare war on you, if you did nothing? There si no effin’ manual to the game, but you’re supposed to go to war without knowing what it even means?

Is no shocker that many players just call it quits…

2824

Both immunities are paid for in isk.

If a NPC Corp or Social Corp pays 11% of their income for immunity as sunk in tax, that is no different than a Player Corp paying the same fee in isk as it would cost to wardec them, for immunity.

This is absolutely clear and obvious.

2825

Lets try a concrete example of your suggestion.

I am PIRAT, with 240 members.
You are Yiole Corp, with 10 members and 1 Astrahus.

I pay 25mil (according to your proposed cost) to wardec your structure, half of what a wardec would cost on you in current system.

I show up with a a 30member fleet and start shooting at your Astrahus.
We go suspect as a result.

All my fleet members are experienced PvP players, only 2 of yours are.

Your 2 PvP capable members mount a defense, and get destroyed in seconds.
Your remaining 8 members, pretend they cant log on right now, or explain they dont even have PvP ships or fits.

My 30member fleet keeps shooting at your structure.

You wait for other random HS players to show up and defend your structure FOR YOU, for free.

Nobody shows up.
They dont care and have their own problems and business to deal with.
They arent flying PvP fit atm, are based elsewhere, and would be too much of a hassle to CTA +30 members to aggress at a minutes notice, for no reward, in a fight they have no part in, if they even have that many PvP members.

Your Astrahus explodes, and your 9 members, aside from you, leave your Corp, or leave EVE altogether.

Sounds about right?
Did I miss anything?

2 Likes
2826

That’s right as long as the moment I was about to buy the Astrahus, Aura warned me of what that would mean. So I could judge whether owning my own Astrahus was worth the risk of it being shot down.

After that, it would be my informed decission.

It would be different than my one-man copr being wardecced by mercs hired by a Russian uberminer competing for the ice belts in Osmon (true story) so I had my 3 miners drop corp and operate as NPC corp for a week -as my main learned from EVE-U when she was a few months old.

I don’t see how owning structures should be PvP-free unless the cost of being PvP-free negated the advantages of owning a structure. Also I think that the current attrition caused by wardecs is because of being used as a free-pass for ganking, rather than because of the (rare) shooting down structures thing.

Worst case, maybe 10-man Yiole corp could begin working hard for buying another Astrahus… or reconsider their options.

(I agree that the potential to have PvPers coming to shoot the attackers is unpredictable. Most highseccers play safe after all, and that includes PvPrs… as much emerging content, CCP can only give the tools)

2827

How is this situation you describe any different than in other areas of space? In all other spaces people would say “its your own fault for not being prepared”. If you take away the wardec.
If a small group puts up a structure anywhere else and get stomped on its ok, right?

I went out to low to put up a tower in my days before I even knew about wardecs, with my 5 man corp. It lasted a few hours before it popped. We didnt fold corp and leave game in dissapointment.

1 Like
2828

Yes. But HS is different in many ways.
Surely you recognize that.

You didnt, but according to the CSM minutes, many are.
And your tower in LS, did not require a wardec to attack, unless it happened during a period in EVE with ancient mechanics on that I dont know about.

2829

Yes, but you also should be prepared even there. imho that 10 man corp should not have had a structure in space in the first place.

My point exactly. it was about the same scenario as you said, only we got stomped in low. We should have been prepared, right?

2830

For a 10man Player Corp, that Astrahus is likely by far their most expensive asset, and also their base of operations.

Losing it, no matter how you cut it, is a very serious financial, structural (literally) and motivation loss for them.

I agree they should not set one up before they can defend it, but that might never be possible vs for example PIRAT, which will still outnumber you, and still have more, more experienced PvPers.

Also, I dont get that the structure wardec would be cheaper than current wardecs.
In the example above, per your suggestion, PIRAT would pay only 25mil to destroy your Astrahus worth 840mil, bare bones, off market now.

2831

Thats a valid argument.

But a 10man Corp will never be able to defend even 1 structure against an overwhelming force aggressor in the current wardec mechanics. You know that. I know that.

The wardec mechanics being discussed here dont affect LS, except on gateguns.

2832

But should they?

No one can take account every eventuality, there’s always a bigger fish. But its about prepareness and expectations. Its not like I expected Devils Fortizar to last long when we put it up either… Even tho it took 6 months

2833

The price is one of the things that should be worked out. But I think now you agree that getting a competitive advantage such as owning a structure must have a counter. This just would be mixing with the whole structure design unless they just can be blown.

2834

A 10man Player Corp of mostly PvE players, will never be able to defend their structure against for example PIRAT, no matter what they do, or how they prepare, unless somekind of wardec immunity system is put in place.

2835

Owning a structure is a privilege you should have to defend in all areas of space. It’s not anyone’s God given right to own one and not have bigger fish come knocking.

2 Likes
2836

Thats your opinion.
Owning a structure is not a “privilege”. Its an investment that costs isk.

I suggested they can buy wardec immunity, at the same cost it would cost to wardec them.

If 50mil is fair to wardec a 10man Corp, its fair a 10man Corp can pay 50mil not to be wardecced.

If its good for the goose, its good for the gander.

2837

That’s your opinion.

2838

Well, in the EVE CCP refused to develop, some structures would have been an affordable luxury worth grinding/PLEXing for…

Structures provide a competitive advantage, thus that advantage requires a counter to be balanced. Paying a “anti-wardec” fee or just risking them being destroyed are options, but if a “anti-wardec fee” was paid, that could lead to structure overcrowding. Removing inactive structures should be a NPC mechanic, just make players pay for the removal (“storing” them) and respawning if they come back.

2839

It doesnt really matter how many Player Structures there are in HS.

They compete not so much against each other, but just provide a place for their own members to do their business and call a home in space.

It can be difficult to wrap ones head around, but it really doesnt matter if there are 10, 100 or 1000 Citadels in any specific HS system.

All HS systems (afaik) have an NPC station anyways.

Infact, the more Citadels there are in HS, the better it is for market competition. The more Citadels there are, the more they will compete on commodity prices sold there, and help draw down the index if people are prepared to haul to/from a cheap Citadel to a Citadel with a good buy offer. They create market opportunity.

The only segment lack of Citadel destruction harms, is Citadel manufacturers, but there will always be more new Player Corps that want one in HS, or want several in several systems, and LS/NS structure destruction will continue and create demand.

Do you see what I mean?

A Citadel in HS, does not threaten or harm anyone else, in any real sense.
You can just set up your own, instead of using the existing ones.
If you offer better prices, people will come to you, rather than others.

2840

This is going off-topic, but based on my experience I disagree that structure clutter doesn’t matters or impacts the game. It is a negative thing to behold as a new player and as far as having a ingame house goes (which is a very powerful retention mechanic), I would like to KISS and go with something like my “space cottages”.

When I was playing for a few weeks earlier this year, I was appaled to see how many structures were around the busiest systems. Which one to pick? Which were acessible and which not? What could I do with them? Would I even bother to learn and figure? Was like coming back to ESO or GW2 and seeing high level idiots with pets and fancy rides rampaging through the starter zones… why even bother doing what everybody else had already done?

(And no, space cottages would NOT be visible in overview by default, for this very reason. I remember being invited to see a POS for the first time, that’s a memory of my earlier days as a player. They weren’t published in overview so someone had to find them and provide a bookmark or a fleet warp to them. Very different of just have the darned things cluttering your overview, a dime a dozen)

1 Like
2841

Structure clutter has zero effect on anything in HS.
Its just objects in vast space.

In Ultima Online, people placed houses all over the place.
Didnt matter, except perhaps regarding proximity to that regions “bank”", which translates in EVE to that regions primary tradehub.

What mattered, was if you sold commodities at a good value, so people came to buy from you.
The more Citadel markets there are competing, the more economic opportunities there are for players to trade between them between cheap sell orders and good buy orders.

This is no different than how it is with Citadels in HS now.

It doesnt matter how many Citadels there are in HS.

2842

The structure browser under business shows you what you can do where. So does the Industry window for manufacturing and science, including rig buffs and tax rates.