The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out

I wanted to say it’s true, but then I started thinking about it. In the real world it’s a bit true as part of a more complicated constellation, in which the evolving differentiation of labour and somewhat parallel evolving of needs and wants is the strongest force of forming larger and larger groups. But yes, in face of a real and concrete threat, people will do everything in their power to save themselves and that often includes involving as many allies as possible if need be and can be. However, there are threats in which pretty much every other human would be an ally, but there we see egoism and competition in the way of budding up.

In the real world you can see this rather complicated relation of several moving parts in politics. Larger forms of organizations, such as entire nations, tend to have bitter inner fights about how to define themselves. That includes any definition of who the enemy is or might be, what the common goal even is and so forth.

In EVE, I also wanted to say it’s true, but again it’s only part of the equation. As Larrikin suggests, one common reaction of people to facing a self-declared opponent who is going to stomp on them, is to leave the game. On the other hand, you’re certainly right that some people and some groups join ever larger groups, alliances, coalitions, blocs either after or before they are stomped on. It’s partly for economical reasons as well, but not equally strong a motivator as in real life.

It’s also part of what makes EVE fun - the escalation - and I wouldn’t want to get rid of that. For the long or the mid-long game that’s all fine. What bothers me is that it’s also always the strongest option for short-time play.

I mean what you are describing is people not wanting to lose everything. Other games, virtual or physical or both, also usually have one side losing a round. And while always losing is not fun, people develop a high motivation to go through all these losses, before their first victory. Many people do the same in EVE, be it as an active participant in PVP or learning to avoid being the victim. So it’s not losing itself, that brings people to join blocs, but the type of continous losing that we call being farmed (and possibly mocked).

However, does it really need to be either the one or the other? Principally not. The stronger your base and your trust in having that safety line of a stable home, the more eager some people are to have fights in which they don’t blob. Issue number one with that is, that it always depends on what the other is doing. Aside from nano-gangs, it’s not very reasonable to go non-blob against an opponent who is likely to escalate.

For me, the largest reason for this is how exactly cynos work. Just as a thought: if ships that have turrets, launchers or drones fitted, would have to wait out a 20-30 second timer before they can jump to a cyno beacon created by a on-board generator, it could greatly enlargen the willingness of people to go into non-blobby fights and may just generally increase the willingness of people to PVP.

CSM member actually said that it would be ok to remove it and then think about the solution. I dont think you can discuss with this data that they have seen.

Yes exactly. Please help. What do you think of steve’s idea of a structure. What do you think could go wrong? For reference: Solving the WarDec 'problem' - Fuzzwork Enterprises

Do you think it’s a good approach? Do you have a better one? Change will come, help shaping it.

I for one think that the costs should be decent. Not trivial, but not overly expensive (to prevent dropping them like candy)

I also think that such a structure should need refuelling (so that the offender needs to put in effort and is vulnerable while doing so)

I also think that the destruction of the structure should end hostilities much more switfly. 30 minutes tops.
(To motivate people to end it if they see an option and to avoid them logging off after they’ve successfully destroyed the hub as an example)

literally not what that says Salvos.

1 Like

Citadels
Anchorable war structures could be abused to stop attacking/defending of citadels, I can already think of multiple ways to abuse this.

Large groups
Large groups such as Marmite & PIRAT would just control high sec, no one else would be able to have war dec.

More grinding
Not much to say on this, really… more structures.

Increase server lag
Self explained.

Structure mechanics
Will it be a structure per a war? (Increase server load) and would be pretty ridiculous.
Anchoring in same constellation as office, can also be abused.

Overall a very poor idea, if something along these lines was discussed I would recommend a war rig for citadels, maybe even a tech system like followed:
T1 War Rig : 20 maximum wars
T2 War Rig : 50 maximum wars
T3 War Rig : 100 maximum wars

Costs for wars stay the same, maybe even introduce a war room so that deccers can use locate agents in that citadel.

I mean this idea isn’t great as I just thought of it within last 5 minutes so probably loads I haven’t thought of but would be better then more structure spamming.

Sharing the “how” would be super useful. Please, more insight. :slight_smile:

Why do you feel that would be ridiculous?

Wouldn’t that also be abused by just dropping another structure everytime you reach the cap?

Ill keep them ideas to myself :wink:

Most mercs dec 100+ entities meaning it will be spammed up with anchored structures.

Limit it to one structure which must be set as your headquarters.

Fair enough. :slight_smile:

Well, the idea was that it has to be in the constellation for the defender and even if they would spam all of these anchorables in the same constellation, it would be fairly easy to prevent an anchorable to be ankered within X KM of an upwell structure. Good point though, would need to be adressed.

EDIT: I totally misunderstood the point. Yes, they would have to place and maintain all the stuff. If they can’t do that, they can’t have 100 deccs. It was part of the idea to make it more troublesome to use blanket-deccs like that and to have a burden involved for deccers. At least, that’s what I thought.

Well, when I think about it, if you make “having a structure” that you can use this rig on a requirement for a war, it would make sense. But then, how do you tackle alt corps and allying?

Sorry for being sceptical but it will take more than adjusting stat on a hull. This is one of the most important mechanics in the game. It cannot be fixed with band aid. Even more NS CSM members are involved in changing mechanism that won’t affect them at all. It’s like I told you how to balance FAXes. Focus group like with T3C would be good start.

Because that worked out so well. :slight_smile:

1 Like

I have to agree with your idea on war dec prices - raise cost for small corps (100M? 150M?) but decrease the cap for large ones from 500M to 300M…

2 Likes

CSM is not calling for that, just admitting that in the face of such stark numbers there would be no surprise if it was done.

It is a sitting duck. There’s a feeling of hopelessness once the bubbles go up. There is no escape… there is no escape. Remember, the cake is a lie.
The Rorqual pilot (and hopefully his alliance mates who are awake if he/she is so lucky) are forced to fight it out. Not just ‘fight’ mind you, but STAND and fight. the rorqual has no mobility… it is static post.
having a fighting chance of standing your ground for a few minutes is essential to the risk/reward.

I dont see any complaints about the phoenix pilots who gate their content generators around for 100 sub-cap kill marks before the escalation finally breaks them. you come to me is the only difference.

Already found some issues… first one : where do we anchor this structure? Just consider scenario of mercs fortifying in one hs island… and that is just from top of my head. Once they fortify one system in hs pocket they can anchor as many as they like… and keep war going forever for free.

This should be implemented just so you get what you asked for. Just don’t come crying that what you asked for is not what you wanted (“be careful what you wish for”, or just play Witcher 3: Heart of Stones addon, or read Faust, or read about Mistrz Tweardowski…)

  • Where can it be anchored? (I’d suggest highsec, in the same constellation as the defenders head office)

So, the attacker can’t really place them into an island and then laugh. They need to venture out into the defenders constellation. Well, unless there is a nearby HS isle. But then the defender can learn from it and maybe place it somewhere else.

I don’t care about wardecs, I just want to help solving the problem that CCP wants to adress. Really. If you could tells us about the million ways to exploit those, then we can check if there is a solution for that.

Really, it’s about improving the system so we don’t end up with a mass again…

1 Like

Let the Rorquals burn!!! \o/

Acceleration Gates banning Supers and Carriers just like in Hisec, just like in low sec, just like in FW where you can limit the class of ship.

In regards to war dec, I still think there should be an additional spatial cost/factor. If you want to wardec a corp the cost goes up drastically if you want a universe wide wardec vs a wardec in one lone system. After all you only bribing the locals cops vs basically buying concord.

Could also be cost adjustments depending on the systems included. Uedama might have a cost multiplier of 10 over some low traffic backwater system. And starter systems might be disabled altogether?

And the UI would be modified to aid newer players (and perhaps drunk vets) to make it obvious if you are in a wardec’d system. Perhaps even put in optional jump warning similar to enter null/low.

I think these items would help decrease wide spread grief based wardec’s and provide players with options. And spatial based wardecs would more than likely handle more structure based wardec’s. See something you don’t like in that one system and want it removed, Wardec the corp in that one system for reasonable cost.

2 Likes

How about, if I can afford it, I can do it in Eve?

Sounds good. Then we jack up the prices.