The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out

[Iowa_Banshee]

@Proteus_Onzo

It has been established, in the CSM minutes this thread is about, that wardecs are causing attrition of players.

I think just one wardec may not be enough to force players out, from what I have seen troubles set in with:

Multiple and Consecutive wardecs

• If you are a relatively new player, A corp owner who cannot play with alts on low skilled (no toon jump to do something different).
• If you are a solo player

Being hopelessly outnumbered

• With no hope putting up a fight where you might just kill an opponent
• When you catch a enemy 1v1 you can beat they have neutral logistics and you die - rage quit is real

Total loss of all corporate structures

• It’s bad enough being outnumbered, outgunned and under an extended war but every structure started on the path to destruction on day one…

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

Social Corps wont hurt retention.

The way you’d have them set up, they will. Not as badly as wardecs do, but they will.

@Arrendis

If the entire corp has to be ready to convert before one person can see what other things are out there that they might want to try, then that’s a dead end. That one person is more likely to start feeling hemmed in and bored than everyone else is to be ready to try something new at the same time. He’s more likely to be annoyed at the game that’s limiting him, and he’s more likely to be annoyed at the friends who are suddenly ‘holding him back’.

Which is all a bunch of really good ways to get him to quit, and never come back.

That… is hurting retention.

[Proteus_Onzo]

All of those are “fixed” by a NPC equivalent Social Corp, that is unwardeccable, but also cannot drop green safety, and cannot leave HS.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

That… is hurting retention.

An HS small or solo group of players that just wants to PvE in HS without wardecs, has no need of yellow/red safety, and would only be harmed by venturing outside of HS (where the wardec immunity is moot)

If they want that, they can join NPC or (form) Player Corp.

Social Corps are not intended for Suicide Gankers, or LS/NS/WH.

[Nana_Skalski]

How much more of this circle quoting ridiculousness?

Have not enough been said/wrote already?

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Nana_Skalski

How much more of this circle quoting ridiculousness?

They will never stop avoiding the issues with their view of Social Corps.

They have big plans if implemented as they want them.

NS and suicide gankers have been pushing for Social Corps, as they see them, for them, for years.

[Keiko_O_dina]

This.

I think I’d be ok with some moratorium on Wardecs. Give me a chance to breath, if that’s not my thing, or I’m not able to compete. I agree with the more PvP oriented posters that EVE should never have a “safe” switch. But perhaps it needs a “gimme a medpac” switch.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

They have big plans if implemented as they want them.

NS and suicide gankers have been pushing for Social Corps, as they see them, for them, for years.

Just what plans do you think we have? There is literally no benefit to a social corp that an NPC corp doesn’t give, except the social aspect, and you know what? We don’t need the HS corp for that, we have Mumble already.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

There is literally no benefit to a social corp that an NPC corp doesn’t give

This contradicts you saying earlier it would be like a Player Corp.

Get your spin straight.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

This contradicts you saying earlier it would be like a Player Corp.

How does it contradict it? What benefit do you see it having?

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

There is literally no benefit to a social corp that an NPC corp doesn’t give

@Arrendis

@Proteus_Onzo

This contradicts you saying earlier it would be like a Player Corp.

How does it contradict it? What benefit do you see it having?

Are you unaware of the differences between a NPC and Player Corp?

Is your head spinning that hard with your own propaganda?

[Arrendis]

I am asking you what benefit you think being in an undec’able highsec corp that can’t anchor structures (beyond the MTU stuff, even you agreed with ‘no citadels/refineries’ etc) would give to us that an NPC corp does not. And what plans you think we have.

Or is this just some massive ‘NULLSEC ALWAYS HAS PLANS!!!’ conspiracy in your head?

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

Or is this just some massive ‘NULLSEC ALWAYS HAS PLANS!!!’ conspiracy in your head?

Why then are you pushing so hard for a Social Corp system that isnt HS exclusive, and isnt fixed to Green safety?

[Keiko_O_dina]

@Proteus_Onzo

Why then are you pushing so hard for a Social Corp system that isnt HS exclusive, and isnt fixed to Green safety?

Because even a noob like me wants to go fly around in WH space. (And get blown up for it)

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

Why then are you pushing so hard for a Social Corp system that isnt HS exclusive, and isnt fixed to Green safety?

Because, as I’ve said a dozen times already, I think it will hurt retention, I think placing restrictions that don’t need to be there is a bad way to do things in general, and I basically just think that limitation is STUPIDER THAN THE PET ROCK. You remember those, right? You remember how dumb those were?

You don’t need it. It is adding complexity. Added complexity is bad unless it is absolutely necessary. Added complexity means more places for things to go wrong. If something is necessary, it is necessary, If it isn’t, get rid of it[1].

So, since I’ve answered what has to be the most ridiculous question in a thread full of them, I ask you again:

Just what plans do you think we have?

---

1. Seriously. If something isn’t needed, it shouldn’t be there. This whole ‘lets add this even if it isn’t needed’ nonsense is what gave us the Monitor, arguably the stupidest and most useless ship in the game, no matter how many PanFam and Dead Coalition FCs love losing them.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

I think it will hurt retention

The purpose of Social Corp is to retain HS small group/solo players so they can PvE in HS without wardec, to stop them logging off when wardecced and not returning.

@Arrendis

I think placing restrictions that don’t need to be there

The restrictions I posted need to be there to prevent abuse of this new Social Corp mechanic by those it is not intended for.

PS: Have you decided yet if in your proposal its like a NPC Corp, or like a Player Corp?
You keep avoiding this and refusing to define it specifically.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

The purpose of Social Corp, is to retain HS small grouå/solo players so they can PvE in HS without wardec, to stop them logging off when wardecced and not returning.

And I think it can be achieved without locking them into a cage in HS that will hurt retention, all on its own.

@Proteus_Onzo

The restrictions I posted need to be there to prevent abuse of this new Social Corp mechanic by those it is not intended for.

The abuses you’ve indicated can already be done in an NPC corp. What advantage does the social corp provide that they don’t already have? Again: Just what plans do you think we have?

@Proteus_Onzo

PS: Have you decided yet if in your proposal its like a NPC Corp, or like a Player Corp?
You keep avoiding this and refusing to define it specifically.

You mean except for the bit where I did, in fact, define it?

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

You mean except for the bit where I did, in fact, define it?

Its incomplete and lacking.

What is the tax rate?
What is the leadership structure?
Does it have Corp Hangars?
What is cost of creation?
How is the Corp destroyed?

Its like you didnt read the discussion, or like you ignored them as convenient.

I dont trust anything you say further than I can throw you.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

What is the tax rate?
What is the leadership structure?
Does it have Corp Hangars?
What is cost of creation?
How is the Corp destroyed?

Social Corporations are otherwise identical to normal (or ‘Active’) Player Corporations.

Or, you know, did you miss that bit?

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

Social Corporations are otherwise identical to normal (or ‘Active’) Player Corporations.

And yet you earlier said it would be like an NPC Corp.