The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out

[gnshadowninja]

@Nana_Skalski

Very simple.
Wardeccers would not be doing PvP if they would not like killing

Edit : nvm my brain is skipping words when reading. Ill step outside for abit

[Black_Pedro]

@Corraidhin_Farsaidh

In terms of wardecs: I understand effectively bribing CONCORD to look the other way, but the Empire navies certainly shouldn’t. As far as they are concerned any aggression in their space should be dealt with by Empire police. That would mean no aggression on gates or stations in hisec without police intervention.

What if the wardeccers have great standing with the Empire?

Wars need a revamp yes, but there is no point nerfing wars even further. They are already inaccessible to non-specialist groups and too expensive/risky for normal groups to usually use. More nerfs will just mean more consolidation and lopsided fights. The focus should be on making the war mechanic more used by giving corps reasons to fight, but keeping people who don’t want, or can’t fight out of them in the first place.

A social corp ticks these boxes just fine. There is no need to reinvent the wheel here.

[Arrendis]

I’m not twisting my own words. It’s not a question of ‘saving’ yourself from getting your maurader ganked, it’s the idea that the people who are gonna quit the game over that… you can’t do anything about that. They’ve been around a while, they know ganks happen… at that point, the decision to quit is one you can’t prevent. Those people—the people who will never develop a tolerance for PvP—they’re not the issue. They’re a lost cause.

[Tipa_Riot]

• solo PvP fit with AC and unbreakable shield tank
• solo PvP fit with web
• solo PvP fit against ECM drones
• solo PvP fit with double / tripple neuts
• PvE versions with HAMs

I heavily make use of the fact, that you can switch rigs without losing them. The fitting variants were created while I was hunting Abyss runners, to always have the right hard counter in cargo before engaging. I used to drop the cloak and sub onsite with the depot to get a beefier version.

[gnshadowninja]

@Black_Pedro

Wars need a revamp yes, but there is no point nerfing wars even further. They are already inaccessible to non-specialist groups and too expensive/risky for normal groups to usually use. More nerfs will just mean more consolidation and lopsided fights. The focus should be on making the war mechanic more used by giving corps reasons to fight, but keeping people who don’t want, or can’t fight out of them in the first place.

A social corp ticks these boxes just fine. There is no need to reinvent the wheel here

I’m in agreement here, WoW just introduced their new optional pvp mechanic where you get bonuses for enabling it. A similar mechanic can be introduced to Eve Online where you can setup a social corp with limits. (Such as no structures, npc tax amounts, no wars, limited members maybe?) And if you wish to expand further you would have to enable war decs.

The biggest issue I see with this is what Jin said, you don’t want to have a corporation with 100 hulks immune to war decs.

[nomadd79]

@Kuklo

Dracvlad:

So Frat comes in blows up the structure

Wow. That’s unbalanced. Big nullsec oppressed higsec.

Unbalanced? You are talking about unbalanced? That is such a joke! The way things are now is unbalanced.

If Guatemala declares war on the Unites States they can’t complain about it being “unbalanced” when the US Marines turn up!!

If you can’t defend a structure against them were they to form up then you shouldn’t war dec them… surely?

[Jeremiah_Saken]

but it’s not the same. War declaration system vs unpredictable ganks. People leaving because they rage quit after losing marauder have no place here, people leaving because blanket wardecc system are not supposed to be expendables. They made an effort to create a corp and probably some effort to manage it. They may have been addition to the game and community.

[Arrendis]

@Dracvlad

And this is why you do not get it, the people who will move on to do PvP and stuff will want to fight back to win and winning is in their face by ending the war dec and don’t forget that they are facing bling fitted high SP players, and if they can combine with others of the same mind you get a change in the game due to results.

And what you don’t get is that a fair chunk of the people who’ll dock up and log off in the first month or two, and never look back… give them eight months, a year, and they won’t do that. A lot of folks just need a certain amount of time to get used to things before they start taking more risks, especially if they don’t have more experienced players to give them support and guidance.

@Dracvlad

Do you know who this corp is ‘Omega And Friends Medialabs?’

Small corp, loses a lot of POCOs, hasn’t had a combat kill/loss in the last month.

[Arrendis]

Interesting, thanks. How do you define an ‘unbreakable shield tank’, though? Again, just curious, as my experience tends more toward the ‘oh, look, that carrier just evaporated in under 30 seconds from Ishtars’.

[Arrendis]

@gnshadowninja

The biggest issue I see with this is what Jin said, you don’t want to have a corporation with 100 hulks immune to war decs.

Why? They’re not immune to ganks.

[gnshadowninja]

@nomadd79

Unbalanced? You are talking about unbalanced? That is such a joke! The way things are now is unbalanced.

Do realise he was taking the mick right? Chill.

[nomadd79]

@gnshadowninja

Mingja:

So you don’t have any reason for the wardecc other than “they become targets”. This is exactly the kind of behaviour that I think is wrong.

Let’s remove ganking then.

Ganking has costs. Unlike war decs.

@gnshadowninja

Mingja:

they might hire a gun to end it quickly

There we go with the quickly again, nothing in high sec to do woth structures ends quickly. I know as I felt like my life got drained away shooting structures the last 6 months.

And this is why, if it was up to me there would be no reinforcement for war structures so they die the same day they are attacked if they are not defended. At the very least they should be as easy/quick to kill as low power structures in J-Space

[Arrendis]

@Jeremiah_Saken

but it’s not the same. War declaration system vs unpredictable ganks. People leaving because they rage quit after losing marauder have no place here, people leaving because blanket wardecc system are not supposed to be expendables. They made an effort to create a corp and probably some effort to manage it. They may have been addition to the game and community.

Sure, but for all that, if it’s someone who will never develop a tolerance for PvP, nothing anyone else can do will change that. Excluding them from the wardec mechanics won’t change that. They’ll still get ganked, at some point. And if they’re the sort of person who’s going to quit over ‘I didn’t consent to PvP’, well… you can’t stop it.

But there’s a difference between that person, and the person who’s just not comfortable enough with EVE yet to feel like they’re ready to fight other people, and gets disheartened and gives up because they’ve been under a wardec for a month and haven’t been able to play. And a month is… nothing. I used an alt to hire VMG to wardec some people for a friend of mine last year* for…most of last year. Because my friend was pissed off, but broke.

• • or maybe the year before. I’m old, time’s fuzzy.

[Corraidhin_Farsaidh]

@Black_Pedro

Wars need a revamp yes, but there is no point nerfing wars even further.

My intention wasn’t to nerf wars, but rather reposition where they occur in space. Leave war targets as targets, but still allow some leeway for movement/trade for the defenders. I was more thinking along the lines that a non-social corp requires a citadel in space, this is still a viable target fror the attackers, as is hunting mission runners/miners/explorers in open space. Empires however would take a dim view on you shooting each other where they are supposed to uphold the law no matter how good your standings with them.

I’m just proposing ideas though since it’s been acknowledged that wardecs need a change. I don’t engage in wars since I’m in wormholes, but something around the above may make willling corps a good base to learn citadel defence/combat, using d-scan etc to keep yourself safe in mission sites etc. This would at least prepare newer players for lower security space, whilst leaving some option available even if under wardec.

[gnshadowninja]

@Arrendis

Why? They’re not immune to ganks.

All this focus around war mechanics and barely a mention of the guys who blow up anything and everything moving. Including every new player that goes to a belt mining.

@nomadd79

Ganking has costs. Unlike war decs.

What!?!? It’s cheaper to gank then war dec

@nomadd79

And this is why, if it was up to me there would be no reinforcement for war structures so they die the same day they are attacked if they are not defended. At the very least they should be as easy/quick to kill as low power structures in J-Space

And this is why people like you don’t decide to make ridiculous and stupid, abuseable changes because you don’t think about all the other mechanics it effects.

[Braven_Anzomi]

Wars are generally very expensive, historically speaking, so why not increase their cost to prohibit continually waging wars (which is unrealistic). Exponentially adding to the amount to wage war after each successive declaration would help.

Resetting back to a base rate each year as to not make the cost ridiculously expensive could help level out things again.

[Arrendis]

@Braven_Anzomi

Wars are generally very expensive, historically speaking, so why not increase their cost to prohibit continually waging wars (which is unrealistic). Exponentially adding to the amount to wage war after each successive declaration would help.

Because we’re not really talking about ‘wars’, we’re talking about ‘bribing CONCORD to let you commit assault, piracy, and murder on a select group’.

[Tipa_Riot]

Properly fit carrier would probably do it, but hardly anything smaller (without enough neut power). I wouldn’t engage an PvP Armageddon.

[Braven_Anzomi]

I know, however, I was talking about war decs

[Arrendis]

So am I. If anything, following real precedent, subsequent bribes should be cheaper—the guy you’re dealing with has already taken the first bribe, you can just go to his bosses if he won’t take the second, or the twelfth…