The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Litsea_Reticulata

as by itself

Doesnt have to be a stand-alone change,

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Arrendis

They can just go do something else they like better.

This exactly. People take their sub money for 6 months and can buy almost any other AAA title instead.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Litsea_Reticulata

@Arrendis

They can just go do something else they like better.

This exactly. People take their sub money for 6 months and can buy almost any other AAA title instead.

Thats a universal that applies to all games, and not an argument against changing wardecs to fix the player attrition it seems to be causing at an alarming rate.

The whole point is to plug that hole, with changes so that players wont choose to go to another game instead. Id think that is self-evident, but apparently its not clear to you yet.

CCP and CSM have made it clear wardecs are a serious problem.

Whether you think so or not, is up to you, but not representative of the situation.

If Brisc, having seen the numbers (which we havent) felt it justified to consider stopping wardecs altogether until fixed, the situation must be very bad indeed.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@nomadd79

Right now they are not threatened at all by being at war with more than 100 other alliances. That is just ridiculous!

That is a big ‘crate-o-wars’ right there…

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Faylee_Freir

You will be hard pressed to get people that have no interest in pvp, suddenly interested in pvp. Doesn’t matter what the system is like.

Exactly. Unlike my first character, I’m not making the same mistake with this one and leaving my default NPC Corporation.

[Proteus_Onzo]

A single structure which can be destroyed to end all wars it has issued, provides especially non-pvp oriented players a specific target to aggress, and a stepping stone into PvP.

It gives them something they can mobilize against, join with other wardecced corps on, and hire mercs towards to fight back and win the war for defender.

Its far simpler for them to get together and try PvP to wreck that structure to end the war by this means, than it is in the current system of trying to destroy enough ships to cause the attacker to desist.

Its not a perfect 100% solution, and it doesnt have to be.
But it does give defenders a more concrete and direct way to engage in PVP to end the wars that are otherwise causing them to log out and not return.

Getting to and destroying the structure will involve PvP, thus increasing incident of PvP, and more PvP content available in HS. The structure owners will naturally show up to defend it.

Many non-pvpers trying this will be terribad, at first.
But they will learn, get better, and hopefully find satisfaction in somehing they havent tried before, and with a concrete reward of ending the wardecs bothering them.

Its an empowering alternative.

[gnshadowninja]

@Proteus_Onzo

Getting to and destroying the structure will involve PvP, thus increasing incident of PvP, and more PvP content available in HS. The structure owners will naturally show up to defend it.

I’ve decided to just keep answering your posts by quoting other people now.

@Faylee_Freir

You will be hard pressed to get people that have no interest in pvp, suddenly interested in pvp. Doesn’t matter what the system is like.

@Buoytender_Bob

Any business model that argues that people will be willing to pay to be forced to do an activity they don’t want to do so that their money supports other people enjoying their discomfort is doomed to fail. Saying that adding a structure in wardeccing is going to cause a significant increase in HS corp logging on to do an activity they don’t want, joining other strange corps to form a adhoc fleet (in a game they say to “trust no one”), to battle a singular,organized PvP entity that makes their bankroll destroying other players assets, is just plain illogical.

@Jeremiah_Saken

and we in the same place as before, nothing was solved. People don’t wanted to fight still won’t be.

@Corraidhin_Farsaidh

Because these are typically players with zero interest in PvP. I’m not sure if anything would change that, but it would have to be something realistically achievable by the least organized players in the game.

@Mizhara_Del_thul

Not for player retention. The people who are willing to go out and do this stuff? They’re already doing it right now. They’re not the problem.

@Black_Pedro

Of course not. Which is why we need a solution that doesn’t involve people to deciding to suddenly start PvPing.

[Tipa_Riot]

@Proteus_Onzo

Many non-pvpers trying this will be terribad, at first.
But they will learn, get better,

Do you think the wardeccers will give them a couple of months time to learn? What do the defenders do in the meantime while they “learn” and still are cannon fodder?

Also, IMO there is no suitable way to learn PvP in highsec.

[darkestkhan_Eriker]

@Proteus_Onzo

Link wardecs to a dedicated wardec structure, the destruction of which ends all wardecs issued through it as won by the defenders.

That will work for situations like me wardeccing you. Try the same with Marmites… no way industrialists can join and fight back against them – we would need overwhelming number advantage. Somewhere around at least 5:1. Seems like you are the one who doesn’t get it. It is not even a fight - it is shipgrinder. Most people are not interested in fighting with such odds.

[Proteus_Onzo]

Whether a wardec structure will result in more PvP by otherwise non-PvP players is up for debate.

But implementing this system certainly will not increase the amount of player attrition due to wardecs, and instead stands to keep them ingame at a better rate.

Its an improvement, for sure, to the current status quo.

We also know, that its important to motivate players to experience PvP, and learn how to deal with PvP, thiugh its not their primary interest at the time.

This mechanic of a wardec structure makes it far easier for CEOs and FCs to mobilize otherwise non-PvP players to join together to try it, against a specific target rather than hunting the wardeccers ships, to end the war.

Also makes it far easier for wardecced corps to hire mercs to take out the structure from which the wardecs are issued.

[darkestkhan_Eriker]

@Mizhara_Del_thul

Already told you why this won’t work. Ad nauseum. Bears aren’t interested in fighting in the first place

not saying you are wrong but they would be more likely to fight if they had a chance. Thing is that @Proteus_Onzo is thinking about fights against small scale wardeccers, not about the big ones against which bears stand no chance to begin with (how many bears can even fly half decently fit battlecruiser? how many don’t mind losing it if they get good fight?)

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Tipa_Riot

What do the defenders do in the meantime while they “learn” and still are cannon fodder?

Nobody learns PvP overnight.

@darkestkhan_Eriker

Try the same with Marmites… no way industrialists can join and fight back against them – we would need overwhelming number advantage.

Marmite is an outlier.
Its unreasonable to expect Marmite will be challenged, overnight.
It will take time for players to learn PvP, and organise.

In the meantime, however, industrialists are typically quite isk wealthy, and certainly materials rich.

They can pool funds/resources to hire a massive merc force to constantly harass/threaten the Marmite wardec structure, thus forcing Marmite to break off its aggressive operations, for defensive ones.

Many Marmite members will not want to run a defensive war, with little to no profit compared to their offensive operations, so its questionable how many will even turn up to defend the wardec structure, not just once, but daily or weekly. Depending on topography, they may have to clone jump constantly between the wardec structure to defend it, and their own lucrative operations elsewhere.

If Marmite was to lose the wardec structure, they will have to re-buy all their wardecs, at great expense, all over again.

Not to mention the loss of prestige, which will chafe them something fierce.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

So to beat the mercs they have to… hire the mercs that they need to beat.
There are basically no massive merc forces and they aren’t going to go around fighting each other.
Also they aren’t going to pool resources because that would be so easy for someone to scam and run off with all their money (almost certainly someone from marmite or the marmite analogy we are talking about).
And the war decs that are getting thrown around like candy are from these ‘outliers’ that you are claiming. Small PvP corps do very targeted wardecs. The mass decs are from the huge entities.

[darkestkhan_Eriker]

@Hlamon

But if at least 1% more of wardecs will lead to actual fighting - I call it a win.

You are moron for not recognizing the issue. Fights are not the problem. It is player retention that is. How you gonna fix that with structure? Cause for one I know that many if not most of hs corps are industry corps of industrialists, full of alts for convenience of corp hangars (which enables larger scale industry operations in the first place). How many of these are even trained into half-decently flying half-decently fit battlecruisers? For one I can already tell you that dessies/cruisers just won’t be enough to deal with battle hardened and experienced pvp’ers who know of nearly every cheese start in hs that is out there…

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Nevyn_Auscent

So to beat the mercs they have to… hire the mercs that they need to beat.

All they need to beat, is the single wardec structure.

When that explodes, so end all the wars it has issued.

As to hiring Mercs without being scammed, afaik there are trusted players that hold collateral/payment pending completion of a contract.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

It’s going to have a timer and reinforcement phases. It has to otherwise timezone warfare says no decs can really ever happen against an entity that knows anything. And CCP know that, so it will.
This means that the defenders can form for a known attack by a known entity, who by the nature of highsec corps they can probably get spies into anyone big enough to even remotely threaten them also. (since they know who shot them the first time). Which means that the only people who have a chance are the giant entities, aka the null sec giants, because the wardec corps are otherwise one of the largest entities in the sea they are dealing with.

And sure… Now tell me how a bunch of newer players are going to know who can actually be trusted and who can’t.
These “known” names are known to the ancient vets, not to the masses. It’s easy to point to them when you are a vet and heavily involved with the game, not so easy when you don’t play EVE as your second job and haven’t spent 15 years in it.
This all assumes they can find a merc corp large enough to actually fight someone like Marmite… Which isn’t very many corps and they are going to be charging tens or hundreds of billions.

Quite simply a structure is not a solution. It ends up being pointless for highsec corps and makes the null corps now immune to wardecs.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Nevyn_Auscent

Quite simply a structure is not a solution.

Quite simply, a wardec structure is the solution.
Either defend it, or lose all your wardecs when it explodes.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Proteus_Onzo

Quite simply, a wardec structure is the solution.
Either defend it, or lose all your wardecs when it explodes.

I applaud your use of structured logical arguments to make your point.
In awe of your ability I shall copy your debating style and reply.

“No U!”

[Proteus_Onzo]

You simplified it all to a conclusion.
I did the same.

[darkestkhan_Eriker]

@Proteus_Onzo

Marmite is an outlier.
Its unreasonable to expect Marmite will be challenged, overnight.
It will take time for players to learn PvP, and organise.

In the meantime, however, industrialists are typically quite isk wealthy, and certainly materials rich.

Marmites is the outlier? So is PIRAT then. Here is the catch : these two outliers are the ones that there is no realistic chance to win against - at least not in timeframe that would prevent people uninterested in constant pvp from logging off completely.

And I think you overestimate margins in industry – only really big fishes can spew billions like nothing. All the newer corps don’t have that kind of financing, and whatever there is goes to financing more and more industry.

Btw what do you mean by great expense? Most vets can throw a couple billions and barely notice the difference in wallet.