The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out

[Nicolai_Serkanner]

@Lucas_Kell

Had the rules been enforced properly and he been given vacations from posting when he got out of control there’a good chance his posting style would have evolved to a more reasonable level.

Discussing forum moderation is prohibited. Reported.

[Whitehound]

@Terranid_Meester

@Balos_Tritapo

Players today don’t WANT to be forced to pvp,they want pvp in special areas(like low and 0.0 in eve.)

Explain Dark Souls then.

EVE is a free universe where idiots get shot. Of course he’ll think it’s wrong.

There is a vast number of games, each different and many unique. And look at him there, he wants to tell us all should only have PvP arenas!

Where did I see this sort of mindset before? Right, next thing he’ll tell us is that we should all wear symbols on our clothing, to be distinguishable and so we can be discriminated, too. PvPers need to be put into enclosures …

[Teckos_Pech]

@Lucas_Kell

It’s not really that big. They are already losing players by the minute, opening it up to a larger audience is unlikely to make that worse any time soon.

Is this based on more of your “facts”? Sure looks like supposition to me.

@Lucas_Kell

Which it won’t. Loads of things have happened to EVE which people have previously stted would mean the death of EVE and every single time there’s no exodus.

Are these more of your “facts”? See you make these statements, call them “facts” when in reality they are just your beliefs. Which is fine, but you really shouldn’t call them facts.

BTW, yes, quite a bit has changed in EVE. But the core element of the game, shooting people anywhere at anytime (so long as you are willing to accept the consequences) has not changed. That is what everyone is talking about. Not a new ship type or changes to moon goo, or some other stuff. But a change to the core nature of the game.

@Lucas_Kell

It was demonstrated in one presentation based on a heavily flawed analysis, then repeated later.

First off you cannot even describe the analysis correctly. Second, you have not pointed to any flaws. Thirdly this is just not true. CCP Quant did a presentation and provided the results with 4 player types…and again it also had a retention element too it and people who were engaged with not just the game, but other players had the best retention rates. Maybe somebody will link it.

Further, we have this quote from CCP Rise,

We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish.–CCP Rise

https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/5504221/#post5504221

@Lucas_Kell

The fact is that most normal people don’t like having they playtime shut down by griefers.

The analysis showed that for players less than 15 days old grieifing happens to about 1% of them. The other 99% are not griefed in that time period. Now, maybe ganking does have an effect on older players, but you’ve already indicated you don’t care about them…so where is the problem?

@Lucas_Kell

Nope, this is educated speculation based on years of experience.

Thank your for finally admitting th is.

@Lucas_Kell

Do you honestly think that if PA were going to oversee future development that they’d state that publicly right from the start? If so, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

I think when firms lie, especially to their customers, it tends to be bad. Very bad. Where I work, we try really hard to tell our customers why our prices are going up. We explain the reasons why. And oddly enough they are generally fine with it. There are lots of things we cannot control. Like the price of inputs spiking.

But if your belief is that firms are simply out to screw customers out of their money then…there isn’t much room for additional discussion. Oh…and why do you keep patronizing such firms? They are lying to you and cheating you.

@Lucas_Kell

“Local knowledge”? If you mean by let the original developers deal with it, it’s clear they aren’t.

How do you know? See, there is this concept called the knowledge problem. Basically we are all “rationally ignorant”. We all decide that acquiring more information in certain areas is of little benefit so we opt to remain ignorant. Also, there is information we just cannot get or cannot get without very high costs. This is long winded way of saying, you don’t have all the facts (and neither do I). It is quite possible that people at CCP do have some good ideas on how to help the recent decline in players, but that the last owners were constraining them. Firms are hierarchical, and if the top says “Do X,” you do X even if you know X is probably not a good idea.

@Lucas_Kell

Alpha clones were brought in to bulk the numbers, but it’s pretty clear that CCP are fighting a losing battle.

Talk about recycling tired bits of data. Yes, you’ve said this several times. And yes, that is one possibility. However, there could have been other reasons too. I don’t know. I am not privy to the internal discussions at CCP. In fact, not only could your hypothesis be true, the other reasons could be true too. Not everything is binary.

@Lucas_Kell

There’s no way a company is going to pay half a billion for CCP then continue to watch the primary product of that company fall to pieces.

And there are plenty of cases where you have a take over and the new parent company, lacking said local knowledge, runs things into the ground even faster.

@Ima_Wreckyou

It talks about corp activity and NOT player retention .

It is hard to say. Here is the relevant paragraph.

CCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players of corporations that have wars declared against them and it shows considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends. Brisc Rubal noted that the numbers here were so stark, it would justify immediately removing war decs as a mechanic and promising a fix after the fact. The CSM in general were surprised at how stark the numbers were and noted it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention.

The first sentence does indicate it is for player activity. Now, you could be correct. A corporation gets decced. The players bail to NPC corps. Set up a private chat channel and continue but without a corporation…but you could also be wrong. Me? I don’t know. I haven’t seen the data. I wasn’t there to ask questions. For example, are they tracking the players or just the corporations? What does the data show when they track the players? How big a problem is this? Is it 1 in 3 player run corporation in HS that have this issue or is it 1 in 50?

Just be careful with this. We need to be cognizant that we could end up confirming our own beliefs because it is information we don’t like.

@Lucas_Kell

They looked at people killed within 2 weeks…

Not true. They took 80,000 players (people, not characters) and looked to see how many of that sample were killed in their first 15 days.

@Lucas_Kell

…and people who left after (I think it was 6, it’s been a while) months then made conclusions based on whether or not people in the killed group stopped playing, then further split that down into if they were legally or illegally killed.

Again this is not true. In that 80,000 person sample there were undoubtedly some people who were still playing at the time the analysis was done.

And it was 3 groups.

• Not killed
• Killed legally
• Killed illegally

@Lucas_Kell

The problem is that someone killed 3 weeks in who then immediately leaves due to that shows up as “stopped playing, was not killed”.

Yes because that was outside the parameters of the question they were trying to answer. They defined “new players” as being 15 days old or younger. So a player killed on day 16 and quits would not be in any of the killed categories and in the “not killed” category and he would lower their mean (median) time in game.

@Lucas_Kell

Basically they focused too much on restricting it to early days interaction.

That was the goal. For crying outloud, CCP Rise was giving a presentation on the NPE. Dude it is online you can go watch the video, you clearly need a refresh as to what they actually did. You are literally wrong on the facts here.

@Lucas_Kell

Bearing in mind a miner who has a focused skill queue took around 8 days to get into mining barge at the time, so it would be no surprise that people would be ganked for the first time after two weeks.

Wut? You were just going on and on and on about how you and so many others would gank just about anything including shuttles, pods and cheap frigates. You even dug through zkill to find one player who did this to support your assertion. You are now contradicting yourself.

@Lucas_Kell

I’ll go one further and tell you one way they could have looked at it. They could have take everyone who stopped playing then looked back from that to find triggers.

Good lord…you don’t do much statistical analysis IRL do you. This is what is called having and answer and looking for the data to support it. You have it turned completely upside down. First you come up with a hypothesis then you go to the data.

[Solecist_Project]

How so many people can be puppeteered by one guy is quite amazing to watch.

[Terranid_Meester]

@Lucas_Kell

I’ve got years of professional experience in business intelligence

CCP have years of professional experience in looking at eve statistics.
Personally whenever someone cites their ‘years of experience’ in something that
sounds like a throwaway degree then they are just bullshitting and making themselves
more important than they actually are. What this is saying to me is that Lucas Kell hasn’t
got a clue and so has to cite their ‘experience’ in some meaningless job that was created
just to make someone look important in order to justify their views outside of their job.

Maybe you do work hard Lucas Kell, maybe you do actually do what you say you do but
it has no real relevance in eve online and game mechanics. It would not surprise me if folk like
you were the progenitors of the market crash in 2008.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Terranid_Meester

…it has no real relevance in eve online and game mechanics. It would not surprise me if folk like
you were the progenitors of the market crash in 2008.

Well…nope nope nope…going back to looking at GDP data and that augmented Dickey-Fuller test…

[Solecist_Project]

Let’s all declare that whatever we’re talking about are things we’re doing “professionally” …
… without a single shred of evidence, of course!

[Predvodnica_LSG]

@Solecist_Project

Let’s all declare that whatever we’re talking about are things we’re doing “professionally” …
… without a single shred of evidence, of course!

Talk for yourself ,

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Predvodnica_LSG

Talk for yourself

You don’t even believe the things you write yourself I guess

[Predvodnica_LSG]

You can not project your behavior to other people.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

Say, do you believe that in one year from now, suicide ganking will still be possible in Highsec?

[Whitehound]

@Ima_Wreckyou

@Predvodnica_LSG

Talk for yourself

You don’t even believe the things you write yourself I guess

You don’t need to guess with him. He’s one of the few players who’ve become so butthurt that it’s become their second nature. His comments either amaze me or put a smile on my face. I look forward to his comments and would like to adopt him. Especially when he makes comments about EVE and Pearl Abyss is there no measure to his cuteness. Just watch him write.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

Yeah was around on another character before and always the same street preacher level nonsense. I challenged him a few times now to put his money where his mouth is and take a bet on what he says he believes, so far he chickens out every time.

[Fluffy_Moe]

@Markus_Reinhart

Also, EVE is a player driven sandbox, so all these “win conditions” silliness shouldn’t even be considered. Otherwise they might as well give up entirely and introduce Battlegrounds.

This might not be a bad idea. I mean, they gave up on resource Wars and FOBs, I think they should just give up on Wardecs as well. the only thing that wardecs are needed for IMHO is to get rid of HS structure spam, but you can have a whole different and unrelated mechanic for that You can just flat out remove wardecs from the game and the only thing that will happen is that the game will become better and more populated.

[Uriel_the_Flame]

Maybe he has no ISK to bet but too afraid of the shame to admit it openly, maybe some gankers took away all his wealth that he was transporting in an untanked freighter or industrial flown by one of his npc corp alts?

[Fluffy_Moe]

@Salt_Foambreaker

In cases like this one can only have faith in cooler more informed heads at CCP.

It’s to me a test. After adding instanced space, unload without docking and the ECM target back deal, this will tell us if the EVE we know and knew is over.

I hate the ECM change. IMHO it was one of the very few ways lower skilled, which often means new players, could be useful vs more skilled opponents flying better ships. This will now be gone.

I also hate the nullification change, I think we need to remove barriers from traveling into or through NS / WHs so that more players have an easier time getting out there for whatever reasons they see fit, pvp included, not less. So for me it is step in a very wrong and opposite of what is needed direction.

And I wouldn’t mind seeing wardecs gone at all, they have become too cancerous and too prohibitive for too many people.

yes, few will get butthurt over it, but if it comes down to it I’d rather see those few leave the game if it means we’ll get replacements for them and at a much faster and growing rate.

[Solecist_Project]

We definitely know that he sucks at playing EVE, that he has nothing but words, and that he feels smug about how - in his imagination - he might some day get what he wants without actually having done anything for it. We can tell for absolute certainty that he’s a loser, and that the forums provide him with more life than he manages to find IRL for whatever reason.

He gives away a serious fuckton of information in his posts, and he sometimes uses at least two characters to keep things going. I guess nowadays it’s normal not to live in actual reality anymore. Or maybe he’s schizo?

I wonder if people actually realize that humanity would have never gotten as far as we did, if societies always protected the weak and whiny. We’re seriously ruining our gene pool with people who are incapable of actually existing without some serious governmental oversight. 1984 is damn real.

[Fluffy_Moe]

@Ima_Wreckyou

Say, do you believe that in one year from now, suicide ganking will still be possible in Highsec?

I don’t know. CCP moves very slow even when do decide to do stuff, so it very well might be, it might take them 2-3 years. But speaking of which, this is another mechanic which should be looked into and replaced by something less nonsensical.

[March_rabbit]

What if i don’t want these miners to mine around?
They might have no structures but i want these belts for myself?

[Ima_Wreckyou]

Back when you where one of the “bad guys” you where crying about CCP removing can flipping and countless tears about your inability to adapt like the rest of us. It is probably one of the only threads that begs CCP for making it easier for “the bad guy”.

And now that you switched sides and transformed into a carebear you continue begging that they benefit your own playstile. I must say I already had quite a low opinion of you as Moe Badder, but this just takes the cake. And then you even call others out for having no spine like “in the good old days”… just WOW!!! What an entitled little coward.