The EVE Online Ecosystem Outlook

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Nevyn_Auscent

To continue on from Ramona, this is literally one of the worst sayings to ever make its way into circulation, and has resulted in the abuse of an entire segment of the workforce as a result.

We reserve the right to refuse service.

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

That is the sole reason why CCP is not yet bankrupt and why CCP can continue to exist despite their trashy development practices and quality.

Sunk cost fallacy?

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

That is not correct either. CCP has been chasing every customer they can get their hands on for years now. They are pandering to weirdos, opened up TQ for the botting empires from China, changed ships and mechanics and introduced skill trading to benefit massive whale farms and multiboxer farms despite knowing full well how it would wreck the economy.

Some ships are just laughable ( edencom ) and some ships are out of balance due to the proliferation ( capitals ) with there seemingly being no way to balance their use.

Perhaps I am remembering wrong, but was there not a time capitals could not target sub capital ships?

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

People who want the EVE experience are the one who matter. And they do not have any alternative that is not worse (star citizens pipedream, EVE echoes) or offers a completely different experience in a space environment (Dual Universe). There is not a single other MMO that is like EVE.

Starscape? Ah, but of course, one of the big benefits of EVE is that it is already a sizeable population of players, not just a server of about 80 people.

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

They did after the Blackout. Falcon’s sad face when they had to end this farce was one of the best things I have seen in 10 years of EVE.

If only the current era can be called Blackout 2.0

@Makshima_Shogo

And this applies to all companies, you get customers phoning in and asking the most retarded things where everyone in the office is like WTF and laughs.

Seen the video ‘9 perpendicular lines?’

@Arrendis

The biggest advantage Goonswarm has had is our leadership structure, which lets teams of specialists run different departments, promote assistants, groom successors, etc. Just in the time since the 2013 Battle of Asakai, for example, the Imperium’s Recon SIG has gone through at least 6 department heads. I might be forgetting one, but I don’t think so. Point is, without the structure to allow that, that’s churn at the alliance leadership level. Which is what happened to a lot of other groups.

With very little changes in how corporations are managed in game to facilitate this growth, its no wonder alliances have consolidated as people got tired of running a technology empire out of game.

Want to run a Null block? Mumble, discord, forums, hosting, people who can code ESI hooks, SRP spreadsheets. Its so much more than just needing pilots in space its creating a huge barrier to entry for the next Brave or whatever.

@Arrendis

It could, yeah. But when there’s outside pressure from 150k, why would we?

This is just one of those cookie cutter/divide and conquer problems. If Delve was just 5 groups of 6k it would be much easier for a force of 10k to just attack them one at a time. After a few months the first 6k force will probably just give up and leave, opening up the leverage to attack the next group.

@Arrendis

Large groups have the advantage of being able to self-organize into smaller groups as circumstances require.

Do you think entosis mechanics that encouraged amalgamation was harmful in the long term, or was the ability to defend against hostile entosiss more easily a net benefit overall?

@Tipa_Riot

You know the reason why super large groups can exist in EvE, is perfect intel and control on each char via out of game means. Take this away, and groups would not become bigger than people can personally know and trust each other.

This does not make sense. The only groups that use out of game tools were NRDS and they died in 2020. NBSI is how large groups exist, if nobody had any standings colourings at all, then people would all be using out of game tools, and then you would be right, since that would be the only way.

That might actually increase PvP, if nobody had any standings and everyone had to look up a list, there would be way more hot heads just blasting ‘blues’ because the last thing an FC wants to bother with is looking up a name in the phonebook.

@leavwiz

i still think the agency providing clear direction to ESS with isk and a “set destination” button seems to fly in the face of “hunting”.

When the hunters complain about ‘free intel’ they never mention the exposure of things like NPC’s killed, pilots active in space, and the ESS bounty hoard being exposed with near-zero effort.

@Scoots_Choco

I’m curious what you’re trying to imply with the “will not be legal” part though.

There were some organisations asking for screenshots of an applicants EVE Launcher to verify the number of accounts and characters they had, which is a violation of the TOS/EULA and some countries privacy laws after some employers started asking for people to hand over accounts to do things like sift through social media posts and twitter feeds.

@Scoots_Choco

lmao what?

You cannot ask recruits what their real name is, and then when they leave to be some big name in another organisation, leak who they are in real life to people who cut their power to the house during a fleet.

@Tipa_Riot

You know it will change EvE if ESI endpoints only show public information, you can get from looking at the ingame info like character sheet. Also else you wouldn’t oppose that with such energy.

Well, the next time someone goes on a tear about ‘free intel’ its worth pointing out that Blackout was a failure not only in achieving its objective, but a failure to truly ‘Black Out’ all the intel that EVE generates that assist both offensive and defensive minds. Removing non public ESI endpoints that detail space might actually bring some value back to professions like scouting/exploring that has largely been automated away.

@Fartsniffer_Munba

According to latest MER, hisec is massively ahead in m3 mined. In top 15 by m3 mined, there is only one nullsec region.

Hang on, where do you see data for M^3 mined instead of ISK value mined in each region?

@Arrendis

I’m literally sitting in a fleet listening to idiots argue about the size of a keepstar vs the death star, while in a meeting for INN, as I type this.

That is a good discussion. Do you guys talk about the fact that freighters can dock any where, but carriers that are about the same size are limited to fortizars? How about how large the macharial looks in space, compared to say, a Thanatos?

@Tipa_Riot

Then why you oppose removing access to skills, assets, wallet, mails, etc? If you have no issue with this, I’m fine. But I guess you have, dumbass.

Because those are actually useful for getting eve-mail on phone apps. How else are the null blocks supposed to remind members to pay their SRP and alliance dues every month ?

@Tipa_Riot

BTW, plus, remove local chat logging to client and make screen scraping against the Eula (if this is not already the case).

Got to admit, the reading of logs by 3rd party intel tools does seem to be at least a ‘in spirit’ if not a ‘to the letter’ violation, though, those that are reliant on the 3rd party tools will no doubt tout the QOL benefit they bring does not confer an unfair advantage.

[Tipa_Riot]

@Litsea_Reticulata

Because those are actually useful for getting eve-mail on phone apps.

You missed my point. I’m not against personal use with every time authorization on access by the account owner. I want to remove the option of 3rd parties to know about those information.

Corps my have still access to the name and current corp of a particular char for 3rd party tool authorization, but nothing else.

Regarding chat, you can’t control program access to chat log files on the PC. The only way to make tools like Near illegal is to not make the information leave the client.

[Makshima_Shogo]

Becuase it doesn’t have to worry about pvp if a pvp ship comes it can always get out no matter what, which allows it to quickly move around poch and get all the loot which is about 200-300m/h.

I was pulling the same amount with a pvp hawk but when a pvp ship lands I have to fight it which adds risk to the good isk that comes with poch and every time a hecate lands 0 on me it will fight and every time it lands at 20km’s or kiting range its gone in a flash.

[Tipa_Riot]

You can do looting like you describe with a dozen instawarp ships. Nobody uses a Hawk for that, lol. Most people use a Sunesis btw, no way to catch. Very annoying.

EDIT: I know, bubbles, but it’s effort, and can be easily played out.

EDIT2: The reasons people use Hecate over Sunesis, or Ceptors, are IMO twofold, a) they want PvP like me, b) they want standing by tagging with 280km lock range

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Tipa_Riot

You missed my point. I’m not against personal use with every time authorization on access by the account owner. I want to remove the option of 3rd parties to know about those information.

I am not sure I am following, as the ESI scopes limit what people can see if your own account. I must assume then you want to reduce the visibility on the public ESI scope, so that stuff like dotlan can’t just show the most NPC kills or where ADM are crap?

@Tipa_Riot

Regarding chat, you can’t control program access to chat log files on the PC. The only way to make tools like Near illegal is to not make the information leave the client.

What about buffered output, so only writing to disk every 5 minutes or so?

@Makshima_Shogo

Becuase it doesn’t have to worry about pvp if a pvp ship comes it can always get out no matter what, which allows it to quickly move around poch and get all the loot which is about 200-300m/h.

200-300 million ISK an hour? What, is trig salvage made out of PLEX?

[Tipa_Riot]

@Litsea_Reticulata

What about buffered output, so only writing to disk every 5 minutes or so?

Delay may work, CCP to figure out.

@Litsea_Reticulata

200-300 million ISK an hour?

He is not totally wrong. The numbers are down, but if you dedicate to loot, salvage all wrecks, and roam around, you can make bank.

@Litsea_Reticulata

I am not sure I am following,

Today you have to provide full scope when joining a corp. As long as this is theoretically possible, corps will demand it. Make it impossible, mass blocs get an issue with trust and spies.

[bluelysian]

There is something called a z kill board… it gives ships classes and where they killed with hour and minute… I suggest you to look at a z killboard I did use it in the past to calculate how many percentage of kills bs down in high sec low sec and nullsec in 2 alliances … not big deal his numbers accurate … also people’s resistance against the numbers and math is also very normal… they just want to believe… not know

[Arrendis]

@Tipa_Riot

Then why you oppose removing access to skills, assets, wallet, mails, etc?

I don’t. It’ll make our CI guys’ jobs harder, but it’ll make everyone else’s CI’s jobs harder, too, so why should I care?

@Tipa_Riot

BTW, plus, remove local chat logging to client

Well, then CCP should stop requiring chat logs as evidence for petitions, too, which they currently do for things like harassment and issues of abuse.

@Litsea_Reticulata

With very little changes in how corporations are managed in game

Little change in how the game client manages corps? Sure. Little change in how corporations are actually managed? HAH. We’re constantly evolving and refining our management procedures. EVE is just a game. The people who place their trust in me to help give them the tools to play it? They’re not a game, and we take our responsibility to them very seriously.

@Litsea_Reticulata

Want to run a Null block?

First thing you should do is learn the difference between ‘block’ and ‘bloc’.

@Litsea_Reticulata

Do you think entosis mechanics that encouraged amalgamation was harmful in the long term, or was the ability to defend against hostile entosiss more easily a net benefit overall?

I think forcing large groups to occupy a smaller footprint because of ADMs and entosis mechanics was good, and enabled new groups to get a toehold into null. I think on the whole, mechanics that force people to concentrate and organize, rather than spread out in sprawling empires where they control 8+ regions (as both sides did in Dominion, and as Legacy and PanFam each do still) are good.

@Litsea_Reticulata

Do you guys talk about the fact that freighters can dock any where, but carriers that are about the same size are limited to fortizars?

Freighters aren’t combat vessels, and are able to dock at Astras and Raitarus specifically because they’re not combat vessels and can’t defend themselves. That was extensively discussed in CCP’s own structures blogs, threads, and round tables when Upwell structures were still under development.

@Litsea_Reticulata

How about how large the macharial looks in space, compared to say, a Thanatos?

Pffft. Machariel. You can put a Barghest inside a Nidhoggur, despite the Barghest being 3x the width.

[Tipa_Riot]

@Arrendis

I don’t. It’ll make our CI guys’ jobs harder, but it’ll make everyone else’s CI’s jobs harder, too, so why should I care?

Good that we finally agree on something.

@Arrendis

Well, then CCP should stop requiring chat logs as evidence for petitions, too, which they currently do for things like harassment and issues of abuse.

Didn’t know that CCP has no access to the logs … which is ridiculous.

[Arrendis]

Mind you, ESI access to skills etc also helps the player, as it allows us to set up ‘here’s the skills you need to improve to be able to fly X ship properly’ checklists that they can just log into on our site and doublecheck for each doctrine or capital/supercapital hull.

[Tipa_Riot]

Small inconvenience for the greater good.

[Makshima_Shogo]

Hawk is so that I can pvp while making isk, to me it seems weird playing in a ship made to get isk then run away, very anti eve.

[Makshima_Shogo]

No its because 98% of eve population is too ■■■■ scared to go into pochven so the prices of everything is high.

[Stupidest_EVE_Player]

Pochven is useless and uninteresting in it’s current state.

[Stupidest_EVE_Player]

Bad stuff like what? Like useless standings and t1 module drops from pochven NPC’s?

[Stupidest_EVE_Player]

Dude look at my zkillboard. My middle-name is “danger”. I just don’t like the “danger” of wasting my time. Wasted enough of it in prison.

[Makshima_Shogo]

O, I apologies I did not realize you’re a bad ass high sec catalyst ganker on at least 1 of your alts.

[Stupidest_EVE_Player]

No problemo, my hermano. No problemo.
Ganking is basically all I do when I play the game.

[Makshima_Shogo]

@Litsea_Reticulata

Perhaps I am remembering wrong, but was there not a time capitals could not target sub capital ships?

Not sure about that.

A time when Capitals took a long time to lock sub cap’s and couldn’t track them was a great time in eve, they had their place but needed support from subcaps to do their jobs I kind of wish Haw guns and scram/web drones where never brought to eve, feels weird.

Every year that goes past actual flying skill has mattered less and less in eve, tracking goes out the window and sig radius means less and less:
Haw guns
Scram/Web Drones - caps and citadels.
RLML
RHML
Triglavian perfect tracking guns.
Some npc’s now have 20x the tracking of players, you cannot get under their guns.
Gecko’s that 1 shot alliance tournament frigs with massive sig reduction.
People say that halo’s are terrible implant’s now.

I bet in 2022 eve you don’t even have to worry about transversal as bullets will have auto tracking.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Tipa_Riot

Today you have to provide full scope when joining a corp. As long as this is theoretically possible, corps will demand it. Make it impossible, mass blocs get an issue with trust and spies.

I understand you now. Yeah, this is the problem with programming 3rd party apps and trying to ask for the least amount of information as possible as you go.

Say you just want someone’s basic details for recruitment, you don’t even need an authenticated instance, you just access an ESI instance as an unauthenticated public scope. Real simple.

You do your 20 questions for the recruit, have them pee in a cup and count backwards from 20, skipping prime numbers, file it away in the HR database under first name, last name and your recruitment team pull the record to do vetting.

Since you haven’t already asked for access to the recruits character details, now you have to sit on your ass while you wait for them to authorise that scope. This is a whole other workflow to develop, not that its hard, just that it more work that you only have to do for no asking for the scope to start with.

Now you have an ESI identity pairing to that scope, with a valid refresh token. Your recruitment people look over the details and confirm the recruit has the necessary skills and attributes to be accepted.

They are now in the corporation. For whatever reason, its part of the corp SRP to tax people on how much ore they mine. Now thats an additional scope request. Need another workflow. Another ESI scope-identity paring to track.

Which is why pretty much all software just grabs everything it thinks it will ever need, because managing scope access piecemeal is awful.