So you’ve been doing enterprise transition in the computer gaming industry since 1980?
Ah, the evasion of “oh ■■■■ I cannot engage in this argument so let’s step aside and start making selections so I can paint a more suitable and subjective picture to engage with”. I adore selective quotations as a reflex.
“in VC and enterprise transition management in this and other industries”
Look, if you want to have a discussion, apply a constructive format. The moment anyone begins with these kinds of simple tricks it’s sadly indicative of not being able to engage constructively.
Here’s a shortlist of such simple tricks. It isn’t a complete list, for obvious reasons. One would not want to inspire people to run off with that, would we? 
1 | Appeal to fear and pity: purely emotional responses are more powerful tools for immediate gratification.
2 | Create a false dilemma: making people think that there are only two choices greatly increases the odds they will choose yours.
3 | Build a straw man: always make your argument look like it has substance even if it doesn’t.
4 | Attack the person, not the argument: if you can’t discredit them with fact, discredit them with supposition.
5 | Gracefully evade unwelcome questions: you can also change the question to throw your opponent off the trail.**
6 | Tell your opponent they are unclear, their argument is inconsistent and insignificant and their evidence is unsound, invalid and irrelevant to the “real” issue.
7 | Define words according to how you wish them to be understood rather than by the expert or dictionary definition, and change the meaning to suit your needs.
8 | Throw in some numbers: 82.7 per cent of people are more likely to believe you if you use a statistic.
9 | Attack or ignore evidence that undermines your case.
10 | Be vague, but make it look like you are being precise. Drawing your opponent into endless tangents can convince them that they are the one being vague.
11 | Demonise their side, sanitise yours: utilising all the skills above, ensure the final summary displays a clear choice between good and evil.
Now, you can choose to have discussions with people, or you can choose to engage in monologues of self-gratification. It is your choice, so make it.
No, you’ve insisted that I, too, need to have certain qualifications. So I’m asking if you have them.
Which, you know, you still haven’t actually answered. That, for the record, looks like #4 (you attacked me, not the argument), followed by a combination of #3 and #5 (your entire list serving to distract from your claim that my paraphrasing is a strawman, when it’s not. Computer gaming or other industries then. Do you have the qualifications you claim I’d need to possess before I can participate in the discussion?)
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Players like you are not the problem with cloaking, you are using it how it is supposed to be used. there are active counter measures to be able to get someone when they use it like you do, moving between systems etc.
The problem are people who put the cloak on, then go AFK for unknown periods of time, never leave the system they are in, are online 23x7 without any form of counter to find and reduce their ability to do this. You don’t know if they are active or inactive, you don’t have any way of knowing until they decloak next to you and are popping a cyno to bridge in others while warp scramming you. So you have to assume they are active 23x7… which means while they are AFK, Sleeping, Working, going ot the gym, whatever, they are affecting yours and other’s gameplay.
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Just for the heck of it I will look up the people who have gotten me, maybe they can help, however this still seems legitimate to me.
Driving your enemy nuts is a good tactic. It keeps them from doing stuff, it keeps them working on things other that what they want to be working on and keeps them off balance and unable to do the stuff that makes them effective.
I use combat probes “wrong”. I don’t use them to scan down targets or to find abandoned geckos (though that would be nice, I have yet to find one) I use them to scare off my competition. If I arrive in a system with a lot of signatures in it and I see other exploration ships I can get rid of them by using their training against them, they are trained to think that anyone with combat probes is out to get them so they run and hide, suddenly the system is all mine. That’s not what combat probes were intended for but it works so why wouldn’t I use them that way?
If I were at war with someone this is exactly the sort of thing I would want. I would send people like me to go drive the enemy to distraction.
I need to look into cyno beacons (I know almost nothing about them other than they are like mini jump gates or something). I think I might have some fun with this and that it might just make for some awesome pictures and video. Hell, maybe someone would pay me to do this, that would be neat.
You might have just made things worse, sorry!
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As i mentioned, what you do is fine.
And the above that you talked about, is also 100% fine. The issue is when people are able to do this while being 100% AFK. being able to affect gameplay, While 100% AFK with no counter. Now if once every 40 mins, you could pulse an “anti cloak field” in a system you own and if the player like yourself is active, you can warp around for the 30-60 seconds the pulse goes for, then recloak. Those that are AFK, we can catch. (This is just an idea, i’m open to others, the issue is that there is no counter to people who are cloaked AFK in a system 23/7) I don’t want to ban Cloaking, I want there to be a counter to 23/7 AFK gameplay that affects players while AFK.
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Except then you are making the Cloaker have to NEVER be AFK, because those 2 minutes they go to the bathroom now are deadly if they are timed wrong.
Which is even more unreasonable.
Anyway, this discussion belongs in the cloaking megathread, having been run to death over the years.
That’s fair, maybe when activated there is a 10 minute warning in local that the pulse is going to go off shrug the idea from my point of view is to have a counter for the people who are AFK for hours and hours on end. Not the guy who needs to go take a piss. I was just throwing out ideas, open to any idea that achieves the above.
It seems to me that this would be like the united States sending out submarines on five year missions and having the Soviet Union ask them to surface and send up a flare once a month during the cold war. “We don’t know where your submarines are and we find it troublesome”.
I think the response to that would be obvious.
The trick I suppose is that this remains a good tactic even if you don’t think it’s fair, if I were to wage war on goonswarm for example I would be absurdly out numbered, and that’s just the first of many problems I would face. I would use everything I could, including things that upset them. In fact especially things that upset them. I suspect that having seen the complaints in the forums about this tactic that it will be used more often, if someone doesn’t like something their enemy’s might just want to use it. Part of it is simply down to this: the people doing it are paying CCP to be able to do it. For me being able to cloak each of my characters costs fifteen bucks a month and that adds up for CCP. If I were them and reading these complaints I would not change a thing about cloaking, it causes an emotional reaction in people engaged in war, that’s the whole point.
As far as turning it off after a period of time I would think that this would effect everyone, not just the people who aren’t at their keyboards. What if they are cloaked fifty kilometers from a gate camp?
The fact that you don’t think you have a counter for it means that you haven’t found one yet.
So two things, the first is that I think this is only affecting large corporations engaged in war, correct me if I’m wrong on that, I’m not positive. This, if I’m right about that means that the people with this problem have one hell of a lot of resources to solve this issue and aren’t thinking hard enough about how to fix it.
The second is this: I have been looking into this for a bit now and I think I do know how to fix it, and while it could be a bit labor intensive it’s not only not impossible it’s been done by one person that I know of who out it up on You Tube. And that just one method, there are a couple of others as well.
What I have to think about is what to do with this idea, or actually ideas really, though they are all the same basic process. I think explaining it here would make my life, and the lives of others who are not “abusing” cloaking a lot harder so I’m hesitant to explain it. The last thing explorers need is large belligerent corporations who think they own everything they can see having more of an advantage. In fact that’s the last thing they need, I think they need more stress, more problems and they need to stop bitching and think harder. If I can figure this out they can too, and if they can’t they deserve to be freaked out by people sitting and eating popcorn in what they think of as their systems.
The point is that cloaking doesn’t need to change, it’s not being abused even if you don’t like how it’s being used, and that being unable to counter it is not anyone’s problem but your own. If I had the resources of a large corp I could counter it passively with some effort, but I think with a lot of effort on my part I could do so by my self, especially if the person I’m trying to counter is not at their computer.
Just out of curiosity, there is a mega thread on this subject? Can someone pop in a link?
Thanks, and cheers!
Oh, one last bit: please don’t take any of what I said about thinking harder as insulting, it’s not intended that way. I just figure that if I can counter it that people with vastly more experience than I have ought to be able to do the same.
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Most importantly, CCP do not agree about afk cloaking being valid tactic and already announced plans to fix this, sadly without details.
you forgot, the UdSSR didn’t needed this flares, they where able to detect submerged submarines close to their waters or close to their submarine hunters.
you have no chance to detect a cloacky ship in you’re home system…
This would only be accurate if for 20 hours of that day, the sub was inactive, unable to move or shoot or do anything, the crew magically teleport off it, then back on hours and hours later. Subs can also be detected given enough time. There are counters to Subs and they are crewed 100% of the time, there are NO counters to AFK cloaking, and they are not there 100% of the time.
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Given that pencil and paper gaming has managed what Arrendis is saying for decades, I really dont see why EvE or a game like it couldnt have it. It just needs curated, something that certainly used to happen with EvE.
Except the sub can’t use any active sensors, can’t communicate, and can’t move, or it risks detection. Granted, sending up the low-frequency antenna array doesn’t create a huge risk, and moving is minimal as well, but even when the sub’s just a hole in the water, it can potentially be detected.
Cloaks can’t.
They can be detected and they can be caught.
Detection is easy, they are in local chat. As far as how they can be caught I’m not going to go into that, but it can be done, especially with the size of the groups involved who don’t like it.
I’m not going into detail about that because to me it would be horrible if the denizens of the blue donut figured it out. Besides, the first step to preventing this is preventing them from getting into the system in the first place, and that is the failing of the people having the problem with them isn’t it?
There isn’t a ship in Eve that cannot be caught by a skilled gate camp or skilled hunters.
Now about the submarine analogy, cloaking and camping is the same thing. You have passive sensors and local to look at but nothing else, yes you can move, but this is after all THE FUTURE. Still though, if I put my fancy fast attack sub at the mouth of your strategically important harbor and sit and wait for orders, I can still launch an attack at any time and short of dredging or depth charging your entire harbor there’s not a thing you can do about it. As far as them being away from their keyboards goes it seems to me that this is their prerogative, do you think the people in a submarine are all sitting there at all times glued to their screens, never eating, sleeping, or going to the bathroom? In the case of Eve this is a crew of one, and camping a system in this manner would be extremely dull if you had to sit endlessly staring at your monitor because the people your are messing with changed not their own tactics (which they haven’t and likely won’t) but got their god (CCP) to change the universe for them?
I have a friend, who, as an alpha clone, flew right into the heart of Goonspace when she was very new in a Probe, no cloaking, just zooming around checking things out. She got stuck by gate camps, and escaped via a wormhole from a system with hundreds of people in it. As an Alpha clone.
I have been caught by good gate campers in lowsec in a Stiletto that can align in less than 2 seconds, and I have been decloaked by clever hunters in places where I thought I should have been impossible to find.
The problem is not the people cloaking and camping, the problem is the refusal by huge lazy groups to do what needs to be done to counter it. It can be done and they haven’t so they call on their Icelandic gods and demand the universe be bent to their will.
Nobody is talking about people who are moving from system to system. We’re talking about the people who are sitting 1 alt in each of a hundred systems, and leaving that alt there for years. They’re in a bomber or a covops, using rolling safes for login/logoff. They never sit still, and they don’t camp in the safes they log in and out from. By the time they finish their login e-warp, they’re cloaked, and starting their next warp.
No, you’re not going to find that guy. He will appear on d-scan for less time than his login e-warp, and he will never be probe-able in a place where he can be warped to—certainly not long enough for you to get a second probe cycle off to pin down his location. And he will not be visible on-grid unless there’s some issue where he loses connection abruptly.
In shifts, yes.
And? If you’re choosing to be cloaky eyes, then yeah, you’ve chosen to do just that. Don’t complain about what you choose to do being dull.
Good for her. Nobody’s talking about cloakies moving from system to system.
Then you were on-grid decloaked at some point where they saw you, or decloaked in your safe long enough to be probed down, and you sat still. You should feel horribly ashamed about that.
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How did you mess up that bad? Did you re-use a known ping? Did you leak a screenshot/live stream of your position on screen? Pick a spot in a straight line between two objects?
You shouldn’t be uncloaked if you don’t mess up and stay in one system. The only danger is when you jump gates, but cloaky campers only need to do that once.
Please tell me the counterplay against cloaky campers that is proportional to their effort (~10 minutes work a day, maybe more for multiple cloakies + optional checks in between).
- Having a bait with cyno and a bait response fleet ready 23/7 with whatever you do → 23h x amount of people in fleet
- Infiltrating cloaky camp corp and burning spy alts to find campers when they are in fleet → lot of effort and they’ll just kick you and continue camping
- Move to other system without afk camper → if enough cloakies, impossible
- Do everything in space with a fleet large enough to fight off whatever comes through a (covops) cyno → lot of effort and if they happen to have enough people you still get dropped on
- Ignore afk cloaky camper in local and go solo → gambling: is he active and has he enough people active? Your ship is gone. Is he at work/sleeping? You may get some ISK. Like all gambling, there are strategies such as using activity heat maps to reduce the chance of inevitably losing your ship
- Do something else, the afk cloaky camper has won → No effort, but it means that 23/7 AFK ‘gameplay’ has sucessfully interrupted gameplay of others
- Did I miss an obvious form of counterplay? Please tell me.
I generally just pick 6 when I see them, but I don’t think such a low effort playstyle should remain without counter.
Seed more minerals for new eden starter characters just created the numerous times I’ve encountered anew player unable to find any astroids in the game after 8pm is diabolical yes they respawn at dt but how that help ppl in other times zones surly respawn should be staggered that way there would always be something for the new players to mine, what’s the point of being a new industrialist character if there nothing to mine. I am sure this would affect retention of new players starting out, and no I don’t mine astroids.
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Да пусть теряет. Минус один игрок в их случае равен минусу 12 окон))) пусть гробят это говно дальше)))
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the nerf of the moons - nullsec is affected even more.
the core shiittti thing - nullsec is affected even more.
the war event - guess you are talking about trigs, can´t help myself but think about drifters attacking nullsec structures.
ice and ore anoms - nullsec was literally stripped bare of it.
the tank ship nerf - it affects literally the entire EVE.
and null only get part of that ore nerf
What a bloody lol.
they increse the % u can ratt in null beucase ofcurse and another ■■■■ i dont care but is prety much the same
Thanks for explaining how clueless you are.