The Liberation of Athounon

[Lauralite_Anne_Brezia]

@Gaven_Lok_ri

But if we get back to our own internal CONCORD bickering and leave them alone to recover, then they will be able to develop another offensive punch unimpeded.

Its interesting that you mention this, Chapter Master.

As, based on my own experiences, as well as recent news reportings, the Clades are doing exactly the kind of bickering and warring amongst themselves that the CONCORD states engage in.

They are entrenching and re-arming, but to fight amongst themselves in limited, but brutal fashion.

Well, except for Svarog. Limited does not quite seem to fit their vocabulary…

My broader point, though, in highlighting this is that the Clades in some respects reflect the realities of the contemporary cluster quite eerily. Right down to the uniting for a period to achieve a particular goal, before descending into their internal issues once the main situation that triggered that unification has past.

[Aria_Jenneth]

It’s an interesting question, whether the Clades’ internal issues are something they “descend” into, or a key source of strength. Is the Collective a schismatic mess, or a self-sharpening set of blades, each whetting the others?

Context strongly suggests that they believe it’s that second one. If it is, I’m not sure we can claim anything similar.

(Well, maybe we can. I’ve heard worse explanations for the absurdity that is our class.)

[Remilia_Malitia]

You are allegedly too old and too intelligent for this kind of post to be attributed to naivete, barring onset Capsule Derangement, of course, which would also go to explain some things.

The only thing that would make sense otherwise would be outright malice. Where have you even produced these fantasies from? The mission of the Kigurosaka Initiative is… very clearly stated, in this thread. Do you have any concerns actually grounded in reality?

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Amicia_Cora

Ms Malitia, I ask this genuinely, what misinformation has been spread?

That I am somehow acting loyally and in service to the Collective, and that me volunteering my private infrastructure to the CEP is, somehow, an attempt to have the State subsumed by the Collective? That I am a traitor, presented as ‘the truth’?

That misinformation, painting me as some sort of monster for doing all in my power to ensure the well-being of our citizens.

Truthful and recorded historical events are contextualized, and I am more than happy to explain why I have done anything I have done. What I take issue with are baseless accusations leveled against me.

That is who I “attack”, as if this whole debate was not started by such accusations in what was once a thread announcing the dissolution of an unlawful Federal occupation and the invitation of State personnel in the newly liberated system.

@Amicia_Cora

And this is the basis upon you which you wish to conduct diplomacy with those same parties?

LUMEN is not invited. You are not involved in any way, shape or form in any of this. This is a State affair.

@Amicia_Cora

My question to you, Ms Malitia, is this: Do you recognise and accept why many, given the objectively recorded actions you have taken and how they have suffered as a result of them, may reasonably view both you and your initiative with suspicion and distrust?

Viewing me with suspicion and distrust? Sure.
Openly accusing me of treason and conspiring to bring about the collapse of the Caldari State?
This can only be idiocy or malice. Regardless the reasoning, those slandering me in this fashion need to either provide some evidence for their accusations or learn to be silent.

[Gaven_Lok_ri]

@Remilia_Malitia

You are allegedly too old and too intelligent for this kind of post to be attributed to naivete, barring onset Capsule Derangement, of course, which would also go to explain some things.

The only thing that would make sense otherwise would be outright malice. Where have you even produced these fantasies from? The mission of the Kigurosaka Initiative is… very clearly stated, in this thread. Do you have any concerns actually grounded in reality?

Well, what a fascinating response. I’ve always appreciated going straight to ad hominem.

If you want to speak of fantasy, we could certainly start with the absurdity that diplomacy will be “the most effective and efficient route to follow in order to provide humanitarian aid to the State citizens stranded in Pochven” when said diplomacy is with an entity that invaded without communication or warning, has yet to have made any coherent demands other than to prove our flow, and which seems to be gearing up for another invasion as quickly as possible if the large scale resource extraction we are seeing in Pochven is any indicator.

I don’t care what your mission statement says. I care what the course of action you propose will accomplish. Significant diplomacy with the Triglavians on the part of the Caldari at this stage would be a blunder of equal magnitude to the mistake the city states of Ves-Udor made when they bickered amongst themselves while Amarr gained supremacy over the seas and gained beachheads all over their continent. It would be setting conditions for further collapse and for further Triglavian victory.

As we in the Amarr Empire greatly value our honored allies in the State, we can only hope that those that matter within the State will never be swayed by the short term temptations of a course that will leave them in the power of the enemies of all the CONCORD states.

[Remilia_Malitia]

I don’t think you know what ad hominem means.

It is merely my personal belief that diplomacy is the best route to follow, given our current status. I cannot state with any certainty that it is true, but it is clear to me that the current strategy is not working.
It is far too telling that you see any diplomatic outreach as just a stepping stone to further conquest. Not everyone shares the Amarrian belief that all must be brought to heel before them, one way or the other.

Our honored allies in the Empire will do well to mind their own business rather than try to influence what is ultimately excusively a Caldari affair.

We will not permit you to tell us how to be Caldari.

[Gaven_Lok_ri]

I have not said that any diplomatic outreach is a stepping stone to further conquest.

I have said that diplomatic outreach towards an invader that has already proven their intent and which is in the process of rearming is a stepping stone to further conquest.

There is a key difference between the two.

The State in particular needs victories over the Triglavians and all of CONCORD needs to have an equal ability to hit them to their ability to hit us for a diplomatically established peaceful status quo to be possible.

[Remilia_Malitia]

These posts are more of a self-report than whatever it is you mean for them to be.

Who are you trying to convince, anyway? Me? I am a pilot. I am not authorized to conduct any diplomacy on behalf of the State, the Collective or any of their constituents.

The potential Caldari delegation? If they even bother reading this obnoxious back-and-forth that hijacked this thread, I am sure they are intelligent enough not to let an Amarrian capsule pilot that could barely hold their order together dictate State foreign affairs.

The other participants of this thread? Most are part of your organization, I am sure they already agree with you.

[Diana_Kim]

@Amicia_Cora

Ms Malitia, I ask this genuinely, what misinformation has been spread? I know that nothing in the section of my last post that you quoted in your reply was misinformation, you acknowledged all but one part of it in your reply (the State militia forces I referred to, for the record, were I-RED, who did participate in multiple Lux Invicta initiatives under the EDENCOM banner in Pochven).

Calling I-RED as “State Militia Forces” is way too far-fetched. Especially in the discussion about loyalties. Aren’t you aware that they were flying with Gallente? That’s way worse that flying with triglavians, angels, sansha, blooders or whatevers. And not just that - they were actually making official blue pact with Gallente militia forces and were declaring wars on the loyal State militia corporations.

But in any case, that’s not your business.

@Amicia_Cora

My question to you, Ms Malitia, is this: Do you recognise and accept why many, given the objectively recorded actions you have taken and how they have suffered as a result of them, may reasonably view both you and your initiative with suspicion and distrust?

I demand you to bring IMMEDIATELY apologies to Ms. Mailita. You have 24 hours to submit, otherwise you’ll be recommended to set as ‘kill of sight’ degree of suspect for defamation of loyal Caldari State officer.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

I figured first I’d answer something flippant to Lok’ri here about the principle of attack, withdraw, rebuild, repeat, something like, say “been there, done that, got the tattoos?” but I figure the issue is larger than that.

I am not part of the Admiral’s organization and may all good gods keep me from ever being so. But here I do agree with them. Diplomacy is the art of saying ‘nice dog’ until you find a bigger stick.

An aggressive nation on your borders - or, even, inside them - that stops its aggression cannot be assumed to have stopped it forever. Even if they tell you they will, they cannot be trusted, not before a long time passes, with zero signs of an aggression recurring. CONCORD is not a peace treaty. It is a cease-fire until someone finds a bigger stick.

It is the nature of our world that we have for about a century been in a deadlock. The major powers of the cluster are about the same technological level, with not the same but similar enough strengths that an actually serious war - like what my compatriots simply call ‘the Big One’ - would have a cost higher than anyone in power is willing to pay.

(And at the risk of being accused of ‘tinfoiling’ I’ll add that there are forces in the cluster who work to keep anyone from finding that stick. Attempts by any one nation to withdraw, rebuild, and repeat are often conveniently foiled by surprise developments that force their hand and tie resources into a suitable sink so disproportional growth is stymied.)

The Triglavians add one more nation to this mess. They started out aggressive. And unlike the rest of us, they have, maybe not bigger sticks since they did stop, but different sticks. We have allowed out our technological discrepancies to come a standstill, but we have not - not yet? - done that with the Triglavians.

Diplomacy is well and good. But anyone engaging in it had better remember what diplomacy is, in the end. And anyone watching others engage in it should remember that too.

Diplomacy does not happen between friends, it happens between rivals at best, enemies more often than not. Be it with CONCORD or with the Triglavians, if we call it diplomacy, we are not trying to be friends. We’re looking for bigger sticks. And while we haven’t found one, we’re hedging our bets, saying ‘nice dog’ and hoping it holds off disaster.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Speaking for myself, Ms. Malitia, the ones I am speaking to are those who might for a moment think of you as a reliable source. You’ve revealed yourself to be a dedicated propagandist for the Triglavian cause even if you have little better idea than the rest of us what the Triglavian cause actually is.

You’ve also been active enough in defense of the State that there are those who are likely to assume that your positions are sincere-- and maybe they even are. But you seem much of the time to live in a parallel world where the State somehow did not just recently suffer terrible losses at the hands of your other loyalty.

Even in the best light I can imagine it’s not the world the rest of us live in. And it’s best if people have warning of that.

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Aria_Jenneth

You’ve revealed yourself to be a dedicated propagandist for the Triglavian cause even if you have little better idea than the rest of us what the Triglavian cause actually is.

Oh, we have done this song and dance before, haven’t we?
If I recall correctly, what comes next is me saying “What are you talking about? What have I ever lied about?” and you scurry away with nothing to back up your claim?

Something like that.

@Aria_Jenneth

But you seem much of the time to live in a parallel world where the State somehow did not just recently suffer terrible losses at the hands of your other loyalty.

The addressed “other loyalty” remark aside- have you… read anything that has been posted in this thread? At all? Why do you think I want to encourage diplomatic contact?
The State has suffered losses. The current strategy isn’t doing anything. I am seeking an alternative.

Simple stuff.

[Aria_Jenneth]

@Remilia_Malitia

“What are you talking about? What have I ever lied about?”

@Remilia_Malitia

That I am somehow acting loyally and in service to the Collective [is misinformation]. . . .

“I personally align my ideals with those of Veles, as does most of Stribog.”

Did you stop at some point? At what point, exactly? The rest of the thread’s pretty replete with you propagandizing on the Collective’s behalf, as well.

I mean, your history’s searchable you know.

I’m not really someone to toss rocks about people’s prior allegiances, Ms. Malitia; I’ve got shadows of my own, and plenty of making up for mistakes to do, but do we have some indication somewhere that you, you know, actually left? Recanted? Anything?

[Remilia_Malitia]

Did you actually read anything I posted there? I don’t believe I have said anything false. The Triglavians are guilty of a lot, but I was, at the time, in a position where I could disprove false narratives. Basing your hostility on false narratives against someone only makes it easier for them to undermine you by pointing them out.

As for the direct quote you chose to hyperlink, I think it’s pretty clear in context that I am referring to which Clade I favor out of the three, coincidentally the very same invited in Kigurosaka. I find Perun and Svarog significantly less agreeable.

[Aria_Jenneth]

@Remilia_Malitia

The Triglavians are guilty of a lot. . . .

“This is a people that fights for their survival. Their occupation of the planets surrounding their desired stars is a matter of practicality, and the fact that they even bother bioadapting the local populations and ecosystems at large are nothing short of an act of benevolence, for they most certainly do not require them for their task. The loss of life incurred by the war is, of course, unfortunate as always, but the scale of this is far larger than the idyll of some baseliners.”

Sure. Propagandist.

[Remilia_Malitia]

Do you… disagree with the factuality of anything there? The systems of Pochven were selected for their stars. Everything else was a side-effect of that. If you wish to see what a lack of care for the native populations looks like, look no further than the apathetic Svarog.

The context regarding who I told this to and why also matters.

You seem to be confusing understanding with support and justification.

[Aria_Jenneth]

“I should have guessed that only one so woefully ignorant on the Collective’s actual objectives could involve himself in this conflict with such passion and still side with EDENCOM of all factions.”

Implying that you did know of the Collective’s actual objectives. But the Collective does not feel the need to explain itself; it never has. Your own knowledge, if you’d term it so now, was speculative at best. And yet you based so much on it.

I don’t believe that you stopped at understanding, Ms. Malitia. You supported. You justified. You crossed a line, and not a little.

You served the Collective’s interests and ends to the best of your ability-- with quite a bit more nuance than the Collective itself ever bothered. But that’s a propagandist’s work, after all.

And it seems extremely probable that you serve it still.

[Remilia_Malitia]

In the same post you just quoted I drew a distinction between EDENCOM and the Empires, praising those that rose to defend their homes. The poster I was addressing was (and is, as of yesterday at least) a very misguided Matari pilot that seemingly believes in the dissolution of all 4 empires and their merging into a cluster-wide CONCORD state. A lot of his motivation seemed to be derived from things that simple were not true.

@Aria_Jenneth

I don’t believe that you stopped at understanding, Ms. Malitia. You supported. You justified. You crossed a line, and not a little.

You can believe what you like, but if you are to accuse me as such, it takes something a little more substantial than that.

I’d rather not keep doing this here, Jenneth. You are clogging up the thread with nonsense once more. If you need any more past posts of mine addressed, post them in off-topic.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Oh, I’ll happily save them for future deployment, along with the LUMEN Zealot you helped destroy during the invasion of Raravoss.

You’ve left me a lot of memories to mine, Ms. Malitia. And your attitude gives me plenty of motive.

Traitor.

[Arrendis]

@Remilia_Malitia

Attacking us both in the context of the CEMWPA conflict

You mean engaging in hostilities within the structure of the framework the State has agreed is perfectly legal? Horrible, isn’t it, that the Gallente would do what the State’s signed on to letting them do.