No personal feelings involved. These are demonstrable and measurable differences in scale and impact, both on capsuleers and New Eden. The warfare is beyond comparison, so is the investment, the infrastructure, the logistics, and so on and so forth.
Your argument is that a hotdog stand on the corner is “basically the same” as SuuVe or Core Complexions.
More importantly, no one mentioned enjoyment as the criteria either, so now there’s no actual argument and poor deflections?
Yeah sorry but I’m not the type to be impressed by scale. Null wars are essentially children fighting in a sandbox on who gets to play with the bucket and shovel, just the tools change, but the people stay the same. “Demonstrable differences in scale and impact” really means jack when all you are fighting for is imaginary prestige and another set of toys (because someone elses are always better than yours and you just can’t share), just like you think the Pendulum War pilots are.
Really, to me, you’re both the same, down to the inflated sense of self-importance.
Still arguing some completely irrelevant side matters that have nothing to do with the actual argument here. I don’t particularly care about ‘impressive’ or what you think of the people involved. I’m just pointing out you are demonstrably and measurably wrong when you compare the two as the same.
Of course, now that you’ve made clear this is because of some kind of faux sense of superiority over combatants in New Eden, I shouldn’t be surprised.
You are wrong if you think they aren’t the same. The scale changes, true, but your cause is just as fake as you cry theirs to be. Basicly this argument is a pot calling kettles black. How can you not see that yourself?
And secondly, ■■■■ off with that rhetoric. I’ve been there. I think I’ve earned my right to have my opinions.
What cause? One cause is demonstrably real, has measurable effects, has actual impact on both capsuleers and New Eden and the other… doesn’t even exist. Worse, it exists but as an outright lie. You are comparing killing for a lie with striving for actual demonstrable results.
There really is no comparison. As for rhetoric, you have the right to your opinions just like I have the right to respond to claims of inflated self-importance for instance, no?
Real, measurable effects and what kind of actual impact exactly? You get an alliance ticker to a part of space that you still need to pay “rent” to CONCORD for? That is really the only measurable impact that I can think of, unless of course you count the loss of materiel and just time figthing for that ever important ticker, but I think those are a given anyway. A bloody joke, and bad one at that, that is.
You think there’s no impact in securing the immense wealth of a system? The impact industry has in New Eden, Industry utterly dwarfing anything done anywhere in lowsec or high? The impact this can have on politics between entities separated by the entire cluster, or the economy of the traders around New Eden? The impact it has on the availability of certain ships and technology, the prices of these things and so on?
Think Super Capital production has no impact on New Eden, capsuleers especially?
… think Pendulum participants compare to these things?
What part of “in a year and a half I’ve done maybe 40 plexes to completion and barely done infrastructure bashes and missions” do you get the idea that I think that the pendulum war itself is some form of war simulator? I’m largely going after who ever pops up on grid with me, including DT, SC, ect. I would truly love to see a group of ten people take on Shadow Cartel and actually accomplish anything on their own. The real lessons to be learned is found via dscan, intel channels, choosing the right tactics and staying mobile. Those are the source of these lessons, not lets see who has more stamina for boredom.
Lastly, If you haven’t heard of search and destroy or interdiction sorties as a military tactic… I’ve never questioned your abilities or intelligence on combat but that but I definitely would start to.
Maybe I misread you? If so, I apologize, but you did seem to be making that argument above.
You mean people who organize themselves into large collective units based on a common interest might find they have more advantages, and wield greater influence compared to being in a smaller community or as an individual?
I can almost feel my mind expanding with such a new concept with no parallel throughout human history, ever.
As far as I know, the only industry that dwarfs any industry done in low or high is the capital ship industry, for obvious reasons. And mining certain ores / planetary materials because they’re scarce or nonexistant anywhere else. That’s pretty much it. Anything that even comes close to high is Delve in raw economics.
Your claims are grandiose that this industry even concerns capsuleers politics, yet the last big skirmish I recall happened because someone forgot to pay their rent, and the other because people were salivating on the chance to destroy one of the new toys (Citadels) someone else had managed to get. Not because of juicy “immense wealth” of these systems.
Yeah, one thing I can agree on is that due to a monopoly on certain manufacturing materials null industry does have impact on the cluster at large. Not surprising because :monopoly: .
Super capitals matter only to capsuleers, and even then largely those who live in null, because you rarely get to see them anywhere else.
I never claimed the Pendulum areas are important market avenues, you did, because you think all that matters is wealth and camaderie in search of said wealth, or that is at least how you come across to me.
When did I ever claim Pendulum areas are important market avenues? When did I ever say that the search for wealth is what matters? I’m providing examples of the massive differences between the Pendulum Wars and actual wars with actual impacts.
I don’t see why you keep trying to change the subject from this, towards your personal judgment of me or trying to dismiss some of the most cataclysmic events of recent New Eden history as ‘just’ anything at all, Tein. The premise was simple, and you’re pretty much saying the exact same things: The Pendulum Wars and the wars and events out in the rest of low and null?
Can’t even be compared.
Admittedly I think I could have chosen better words for what I ment to say.
Sigh. But the thing is, you’re not providing examples of anything. You just say that “hey, this is more important because I think so” and think you have the right to say that the Pendulum Wars are nothing, when you’re actually both “fighting for a lie” as you put it.
Really. Whatever, I have things to do. Talk to you later.
Sure, have a good one. Oh, and… I do not count myself as fighting for that stuff. Some entities do, create little empires and so on. I don’t get that kind of credit or ‘cause’, as a merc. When it comes to me in particular, you’re exactly right. Mercs fight for money.
Miz, Miz, Miz… You go out to the back end of beyond and join groups that might as well be sports teams and you fight for systems that nobody but your peers give a damn about and you make money that you spend almost solely on fighting to either defend your own backwater systems or else attack somebody elses.
I can’t believe you’re seriously basing your argument on what is important, without ever discussing the perspective which it is actually supposed to be important from. Big mistake, there. The majority of people live in CONCORD secured space as part of either the Amarr Empire, Caladri State, Gallente Federation and the Minmatar Republic. Your wars out on the raggedy edge of known space couldn’t possibly be important to those people.
If you consider the question from the perspective of that criterion, then it becomes clear how important matters of scale truly are. Yes, your wars are bigger, but they’re also far, far away. Remote. The Pendulum War is far smaller, but also much nearer.
Both sets of wars are largely unimportant, except to those who participate in them. As a Militia pilot, the only effect Null wars had on me was when some wounded leviathan would come to our shallower waters to nurse its wounds. There would be much trumpeting about how their huge fleets would blot out the sun and their trained cadres of pilots would dominate the warzone and, for a month tops, I would see more easy kills that were a little blingier than average. That’s it.
As for the effect of what we used to do on null space? None at all.
Both wars are different. Anyone pretending that they are identical is an idiot. That much I agree with you - but - imagining that what you do is important to the huddled masses of the core systems is equally foolish.
If you can find any quote of me making such a claim, then that post would probably be correct, but as it stands you just argued against a strawman of your own creation.
It’s NOT a strawman to claim that you are so invested in your own perspective that you weigh the relative importance of both sets of conflicts through that lense.
And I am NOT going to go back through your posts and cherry pick a bunch of references that support what I said - because you will then next claim I’m twisting your words. I’m just going to leave what I wrote and let everyone else that reads decide the merits of it.
So things like
and
aren’t strawmen, given that they’re arguments against a viewpoint or claim no one in this thread has made or put forth? Yes, Pieter, they certainly are. That’s the very definition of them. The sad part is that I’d largely agree with you, but in your rush towards pretentious haughty superiority you took a flat out tumble down mount dumbarse.
Let Veik do the scathing wit and hard argumentation, Pieter. You’re more suited for simpler tasks.