On a practical level, yes. On an ideological level, both are equally pointless, which is what I’ve been trying to argue this whole time. Perhaps I’ve not made myself clear in this regard, I know I’m not as eloquent as many others.
Speaking of “pretentious haughty superiority”…
Return fire is well within standard operation procedures.
Well, maybe if your style of conversing wasn’t so confrontational and dismissive of anything you don’t approve of, maybe people wouldn’t feel the need to take shots at you.
It’s not just sometimes that I feel I’d rather have Nauplius ram a white hot stake up my arse than engage in discussion with you.
I know, conflict aversion even in text is the norm in New Eden - or at least the slice of it that spends time on these boards - these days. Stupidity and blatant disregard for reason must be coddled and accepted, and one most certainly mustn’t point out the massive hypocrisies and failures to put words into action - or point out actions completely counter to the words - or people might get their feewings huwt.
Worse yet, some dare to even require arguments backing up unfounded opinions, or disregard them entirely! Gosh, how rude. Of course, when such arguments are nowhere to be found, there’s always the perfectly safe fallback of strawmen and trying to turn the argument into one about the person with such gall.
Teinyhr, allow me to be perfectly clear: I have absolutely no intention or objective of coddling any of you. You’re bloody capsuleers and supposed to be the damned elite of New Eden. If harsh words and aggressive arguments are enough to render people apoplectic and whinging then those people are frankly not worth a damn in the first place and their opinion is entirely moot.
I’ll respect any enemy that has the constitution and pre-requisite grey matter to withstand it - or better yet, turn the tables and prove me wrong - over any ‘ally’ or ‘friend’ that whinges and whines when they don’t get their “safe space” and verbal coddling at every turn.
Someone taking shots at me? It is one of the things I welcome the most in New Eden, be it in space, comms channels or these boards, if they manage to do it with any degree of accuracy at all. If they manage to break ‘armor’, even better. That means there’s room for improvement and re-assessment.
tl;dr, just deal with it or find whatever ‘block’ functionality you require for safe spaces and echo chambers. My approval or disapproval should frankly not matter to any of you if the ground you stand on is firm.
Indeed. Funny, because we’re supposed to believe your opinions are just facts which you have not backed up with anything but grandiose speeches and allegories, and that these then need some kind of spreasheet to be disproven. Please. Oh, I think I did disprove at least your claim that nullsec is an industry powerhouse, which it isn’t, save for a few exceptions, and even those exceptions likely wouldn’t exist if they were allowed to be done in empire space. And that is backed up by fact, not your feelings.
Somehow you think I need your coddling, I don’t. I just think you need to start backing your own words with something else than just hot wind, if you want me to take you seriously.
Piss off Jason.
Did you? T1 hulls, capitals and super-capitals account for a very sizable amount of industry in capsuleer hands and after we’ve gotten Citadels their production has ramped up significantly. You’re not going to see huge industrial complexes churning things out in Syndicate as an example, but take a look at some of the other regions. There are quite a few map tools out there that’ll let you have a look at different regions and get some very interesting results. Delve as a supreme example right now, will show you an interesting set of overlays of Sovereignty, existing station infrastructure, jump activity, bounty hunting and ADMs. Put this data together and you’ll be able to start extrapolating where those ADMs come from, where the traffic goes to and from, and even get a little hint at one of the primary activities down there.
… also, taking an interceptor through Querious and Delve with an eye on the d-scan should also show some interesting data points. Rorquals. Very. Many. Rorquals. Then have a look at the mineral markets in highsec and the trends they show on price and you’ll start getting a fuller picture. They’re not exporting ore for highsec industry. They’re importing even more than they can acquire themselves.
And so we return to the matter of scale. Yes, highsec all together certainly produces more than nullsec, but where is that industry? It’s spread throughout a lot of space, and it’s almost all quite small scale. In nullsec, it’s concentrated in certain areas and the scale is off the charts. I’ve had my own two ey… my own camera drones on industrial complexes that left me breathless to watch. Sotiyos churning out Super Capitals, Capitals and battleship hulls on scales that are frankly unprecedented in the history of capsuleerdom.
Trying to disregard capital and super-capital production as if it’s somehow irrelevant - the strongest capsuleer entities in New Eden thrive on these things and any entity that tries to maintain any relevancy among capsuleers are forced to reckon with those powers at one point or another - is disingenuous at best and it certainly does account for ‘industry powerhouses’. A single super carrier will require somewhere between fifteen and twenty billion in materials and construction cost, before you even account for the Sotiyo costs. To put that into perspective, you can easily construct a hundred battleships or more with those materials. A thousand cruisers.
And these are being manufactured at unprecedented rates, alongside actual Titans and capitals… and the aforementioned battleships on top of that.
Now to tie it in with the argument at hand, namely the purpose, cause, impact or relevancy of the real wars between capsuleers versus the pendulum pretense. One of these is affected by and has tremendous effects upon this utterly staggering industry and one… has none. On either highsec, nullsec or pendulum pretense space. Industry in the “warzone” remains largely unaffected and barely exists to begin with.
The wars with demonstrable purposes and effects however, can even ripple across the “warzones” and highsec both as these industry powerhouses start affecting the prices and raw material markets across the entire cluster.
And this is demonstrable fact. Watch the wars and watch the markets. Check the numbers on the maps. Follow the money and check the battlereports on the feeds.
I did look at the map statistics, and the economical reports for the whole of New Eden. And currently it looks like that high-security space leads by a large margin in all but research jobs. Delve is literally the only shining jewel in terms of industry according to the statistics I’m looking at right now. The map doesn’t tell which way the jumps go, so no, you really can’t extrapolate where traffic goes or where it comes from, it just shows where it happens. But, indeed interesting data is to be found.
Already acknowledged that several materials are imported because they can’t all be acquired in high-sec.
And still, despite all that, high sec outpaces null in production. Once again you paint a pretty picture of how awesome null industry is, but at the end of the day it still can’t catch up.
Because IT IS irrelevant to anyone who does not live in null. Can’t help it if you’re so enamored with null space and / or so high on your supposed demigodhood that you forget trillions of people live outside of that sphere of influence.
And claiming that the pendulum wars have no effect on industry is also hyperbole. Thousands of ships exploding every week does have an effect on industry. Of course it is fairly minor compared to the Titanomachy slaughterhouses, but again, since you pointed out the stats accessible by the neocom map, null space seems pretty similar by comparison to the “pendulum wars” in the past 24 hours.
Sure, when someone forgets to pay their sovereignty bills, billions if not trillions of ISK go up in smoke along with millions of lives, but that does not happen every day, by my count, about once per year, twice at worst. So basicly when the null coalitions reach maximum boredom and have just about recovered and maybe even built a little on their previous losses.
It is a fact that the biggest clashes affect the market, but the market balances itself quite quickly. As I recall, B-R5RB affected the markets quite a lot - but it was entirely due to market speculation, since such a scale of destruction was unprecedented. Briefly all minerals - but most severely Tritanium - rose in value all over New Eden in tandem with each Titan blowing up, yet the prices stabilized pretty much during the battle itself, that is to say, incredibly quickly and the market disruption lasted barely a day. For which was then the largest battle ever recorded both in materiel and money lost.
Has the pendulum wars affected the market in such a way? No, it has not. It cannot, because the volume is entirely different, and most of all, rather constant, unlike the “real wars in nullsec” which can have tremendously slow or tremendously destructive days.
Finally, none of this matters in the least because I haven’t been arguing about if these matter in a financial sense, but do these thing matter from a sociological and emotional perspective, and my view is still a stern no to both.
… really?
a) You can tell which way it goes by industrial output and market prices.
b) Highsec outpaces null in production, already mentioned that yes, but watered down across all of highsec. The scale is still infinitesimal compared to large industry operations.
c) I don’t actually enjoy null space very much personally. This isn’t an argument about what I like. Nor am I talking about the “trillions of people”, but about capsuleer impact on other capsuleers. The Pendulum Pretense certainly doesn’t affect baseliners much if at all, but we can look at demonstrable numbers of how many pirates and criminals die every day in nullsec if we’re talking about impact on baseliners. If you think it’s so irrelevant, you’ve never looked at a market.
d) Thousands of “ships” as in some frigates and destroyers. Very occasionally something slightly bigger. While the meatgrinder of FW certainly is more constant, I can look outside the window of this Keepstar right now and point out a perpetual amount of wrecks just on this grid and this region alone over the course of a week - as in, once there’s been time for a decent sample size - sees more ISK and industry output churned through than all of the “warzone”.
e) You’re talking about battles while I’m talking about wars. Try a slightly larger perspective than mere days and you’ll see how prices inexorably change on all manner of things when a war gets going and continues for a while. The north burning down is one of the most sizable market changers of the last decade and other such wars have also made significant impacts. My own wallet can attest to that.
Aaaand then there’s…
… this.
Not even the Goons have mounted warp drives this big on their goalposts. The Emporium or whatever they’re calling themselves these days need to recruit you.
For me the goalpost has firmly been where it has stood the entire time. If I have not made myself clear on that then that is my foul.
If that’s the case, we’ve argued past each other this entire time. I apologize for misinterpreting you then. If we’re talking just about the metaphysical, then no. Neither matters for feck all.
It seems then that we have argued past each other the entire time. Likewise, I apologize for being unclear with my intent, when people misunderstand eacother, both are at fault.
There is no war in null security space.
I’m not going to cry about you beating on me, Miz, even if you actually do. There’s been a lot of talk between you and Teinyhr, above on the subject of economic significance - and this, to me, commits the same contextual sin of ignoring the fact that both of you are talking about the capsuleer market as if, somehow, it were the real marketplace.
Is it not true that we all operate as part of a “shadow industry” separate from the trading carried out by bodies such as Roden Industries or the Mega Corporations? I’ve never seen anything to suggest that we are directly competing with the actual industrial machine that is fed by and supports the lives and livliehoods of real, baseliner, population of New Eden.
So, yes, the wars in nullsec are all about control of assets which are then used to fuel huge industrial complexes that churn out, well, pretty much nothing but weapons of war which are then either sold on the capsuleer market to finance said wars, or form the materiel of said wars directly. These assets are then consumed in an endless cycle of wars that will continue ad nauseam, even though individual factions are born, wax, wane and then die - some to be reborn later.
So, you know, you could answer that point if you like. Making it is simple work, but I’ll just keep plugging away at it.
The purpose of the “Pendulum War”, is to alienate the baseliner and semi-immortal populations of humanity, with the intent of dividing them permanently. The baseliner population would not understand what to them seems a wasteful war without reason. The semi-immortals on the other hand, would conclude that baseliner politics (which they think is behind the pendulum war) are irrelevant and to be disregarded.
The Pendulum War, is in fact some kind of Jovian psychological experiment, to do with alienation by immortality of a segment of the population.
One wonders what the End Goal would be - a race of eternal guardians to safeguard the continued existence of human civilisation, to act as a bulwark against outside enemies - e.g. the Drifters, the Rogue Drones, etc.
Or a race of eternal tormentors, intended to be the thorn in the side of baseliners, causing them to evolve in different directions ? Psychic powers for example. The immortals, being taken from a particular point in time, can no longer evolve, whereas the baseline population might, in response to the environmental pressure of having to endure the torments of immortals.
Those Wacky Jovians.
The trouble here is the subject of the argument. We are talking about the Pendulum Pretense, and its comparison to conflict elsewhere in New Eden’s capsuleer population. Contrary to how it may appear, it turns out, all of us here are capsuleers. Whodhavethunkit. All the wars we can fight in are capsuleer wars, or some hapless pirates or blackguards dejour, all designated by CONCORD etc.
This means all arguments we can really have about capsuleer wards, their relevance and their impacts can only really be had within the framework of capsuleers affecting capsuleers. Exactly because of… well, amongst others the things you just said yourself. Our markets are capsuleer markets, our wars are capsuleer wars and we have - as I have spoken of before ad nauseum - been for all intents and purposes surgically removed from affecting our nations whatsoever. Useful weapons when something ugly sticks its head out, and otherwise largely ignored.
So there’s not really any point in trying to invoke baseliner economies, baseliner impact, baseliner populations and so on in these arguments because they are and mostly have been entirely irrelevant. If I am to have an argument about the Pendulum Pretense vs the capsuleer wars that actually do require significant experience, coordination, logistics, infrastructure and large scale cooperation… it’ll have to be within that framework, capsuleers affecting capsuleers.
The alternative is to take into account how it affects baseliners and then things become rather silly because then absolutely nothing we do matters and why would we even bother anymore?
We do affect baseliner economies, though, through the taxes and rent and pilot license extensions and all of those other things that we pay CONCORD and other baseliner organizations for.
We pay corporations and CONCORD in ISK. A currency CONCORD for all intents and purposes print. If this currency was easily transferred to the baseliner economies, Jita 4-4 would pretty much be diamond-studded by now.