It was not intended to be a surrogate for Wayism, more that the Raata Empire is considered a golden age where the Caldari people were at their best; such golden ages are often more idealized than real in the consciousness of those looking back to them.
I understand that. I live in the Netherlands. We have institutionally idealized our golden age since 1872. People tend to accentuate the positives and eliminate the negatives. However, us having rose-tinted glasses does not change that the Dutch Republic was a force to be reckoned with between 1572 and 1672.
Whether the Raata Empire ever existed can OOCly be disputed, as we only have one (very allegorical) lore entry about it, with very little in the way of hard evidence. However if Napanii was canonized by the devs, and Napanii is canonically a simplified version of the language spoken by the Caldari people during the Raata Empire, then this necessitates the existence of a Raata language that could be simplified. And if a Raata language existed, this necessitates the existence of a political entity such as the Raata Empire. As such, I consider the Cold Wind Chronicle to be allegory based on something which took place.
To qualify, I was not disputing its existence; only expressing a likelihood that the Raata Empire that existed is distinct in many respects from the Raata Empire that informs Caldari culture.
And this is in all likelihood correct. However, any perceived divergence between the contemporary Caldari culture within the State and the past Caldari culture within the Empire will simply be chalked up to a targeted effort of the Gallente to make the Caldari stray from the path the Winds set them on.
At some point, CCP really needs to fix that bug on the forums where the forums forcefully edit your post to remove quotes.
So there’s alot posted here since I last look - But this part in particular caught my attention So I wanna address this part before anything else.
So this is a triablistic mindset
Which - in my interpretation of Raata - Is counterproductive to the whole point. The Raata Empire was an attempt to move past such primitive way of living of “People keeping to their own groups” and seeing the other groups as people to be wary off. The Raata Empire to me would have made tremendous efforts to break down these tribal identities by making people see each other as the same people and not someone from the Fuukiuye tribe or Oryioni tribe. They would come together and see each other as Raata and learn to cast aside these former labels that separated them into thinking they’re not the same.
This is what it was like in the dark ages - But we just need to update it to modern times.
Keep in mind Im falling back on my interpretation of Wayism
Again, this is tribalism.
This idea that these two people aren’t equally as human as the other and they’re “different” wiehter it be biologically or culturally and therefore not allowed to be with one another. That arbitrary social constructs are taking priority over nature - We gotta group human beings into boxes and place a label over them and make sure only people with the same label mingle together.
And every human being no matter of their origins have ancestors, but even in the realm beyond corporeal forms and mortals, spirits of those dead continue pointless tribalism by separating themselves as “Amarrian ancestors” and “Caldari Ancestors” - Even in death the spirits continue to play along with social exceptions that they had in physical realm.
Are they not as human as the one that identifies as Caldari?
Are we not equal beings that co-exist in the same universe that the Maker created? I never stated that the Maker has some guiding hand to this day, but he created more than just Caldari prime - To me? He created everything that wasn’t later made by man, but he even made those resources they use.
Don’t misquote me and imply that the Wayism is a faith that you’re suppose to shove down people’s thoats - But I’m in the belief that Wayists have to reject the divine creators of other cultures or regard them as misguided interpretations. There is no Amarrian god AND the Maker. There should just be the Maker to the Caldari as the existence of the Amarrian god would be a contradiction. The maker made everything, not just one shitling planet out of thousands and thousands.
And the Amarrian that sees merit in Wayism shouldn’t be barred from understanding it just because he had the misfortune of being born to the wrong group - Again, tribalism . They should be allowed to learn and take up that faith if that is what they see merit in. There’s a difference between being open to outsiders and evangelizing. Wayists can accept that these people are deadset on following a misguided spiritual worldview and let them be, but why shouldn’t they also be open to those that come to them wanting to know more?
I reject this idea that certain groups should “Keep to themselves” as that is a reaction conjured up by the Caldari in fear after their bad experience with the Gallente
It was two tribes which started living together whilst maintaining their cultural and ethnic identities, because they interpreted a particularly windy storm during a battle as an ill omen.
Go take it up with whoever wrote Caldari lore then, because lore is lore. The Caldari don’t consider one people to be better than another, but they do fervently believe that individuals should stick to their own people.
Humanity does not enter the equation. Only whether that Caldari is a good Caldari, and whether that Amarrian is a good Amarrian. They decide that by observing how close each individual is to their culture’s baseline.
Never implied Wayism should be shoved down others throats. Quite the contrary. The Caldari would discourage non-Caldari from participating, much like the Jews do with non-Jews who want to convert to Judaism. This is because to the Caldari, such practices are linked to a people. They would want the Caldari to practice Wayism, the Amarr to practice their faith, the Minmatar to stick to the customs of their clans and tribes. No one really knows what the Gallente are supposed to do. Presumably worship a MacDonalds sign or ■■■■. I don’t think the Caldari would care very much about whether the Maker is the God referenced by the Amarrian faith or not, but the Caldari would definitely believe that the Maker does not play an active role in the universe, post creation. This would be their main point of divergence from the Amarr, who would see the hand of God in all things. The practice of capturing people belonging to a different race, bringing them over to your own territory and forcing them to work for you would be perceived as particularly abhorrent by the Caldari, not just because it’d mix cultures, but also because they believe that working hard is something that every citizen should do out of patriotism. Not expedited to random abduction victims.
There is no “wrong” group in the Caldari mindset. Only people who succeed in adhering to their group’s collective identity and practices, and people who fail to do so. The closest thing to a failed people would be the Gallenteans, because they have assimilated so many cultures that their own has been lost in the process. The second-closest thing to a failed people would presumably be the Minmatar, not because of their own fault, but because the Amarr have erased most of their culture, and in the process effectively killed their collective “soul”. That said, the efforts the Minmatar are making to revive their culture and adhere to it would be perceived in a highly positive manner by the Caldari.
Firstly - I like to say that I’ve consistently had this conversation not saying that Caldari lote is written incorrectly and needs to edited.
My entire conversation is that based on the lore thats written and thinking about it, that maybe the Stare either has a intention or unintentional character flaw that we can take into considerations from a OOC perspective. And that character flaw is that despite the State championing their culture and heritage, there might be a misunderstanding with it.
In no shape or form do I think the people that written the lore have done a poor job in writing it and need to redo it to adhere to my arguement.
Secondly - I never implied that the State thinks others are inferior. “Different” doesnt inherently mean inferiority - Just that they percieve others as different and don’t like the idea of mixing as a result.
Caldari and Amarrians are just labels. Labels constructed by human beings to separate themselves among one another.
They have zero bearing on nature and only exist within our heads, they’re entirely made up identities much like Raata is a made up identity.
At the core - By nature - We are all humans. Labels like Caldari are just a man-made concept to separate people into groups.
The disclaimer was meant to tell people not to mistake me for implying it, but I see where my wording gave the wrong impression.
My usage of wrong is not from the Caldari perspective but from the perspective that unless you’re Caldari, it’s frowned upon for you to be a wayist. Therefore, you’re in the “wrong” group to be able to be a Wayist.
If Caldari dont see people being in a “wrong” group then they should see zero issue in someone being a Wayist. If they see people need to stick to their groups however, then they would absolutely deem you being in the “wrong” group if you try and adopt their spirituality for your self.
You’re not in a “wrong” group by default. You’re just I’m the “wrong” group if you try to adopt anything from their group. Caldari consider themselves the “Correct” group for people to become wayists
This is normal, because it is impossible to invoke something from the past in the present with 100% accuracy. That doesn’t mean that they’re not going to strive to match their perception of the idealized past.
That is not why they dislike mixing. They don’t have an intrinsic dislike of other groups. They believe that the best way to honour your ancestors is to continue their legacy, and that entails adhering to their culture and marrying as close to home as you can without incest.
All ideas are thought up by Humans, but that doesn’t make said ideas less important to the Amarrians or the Caldari.
This is a hotly contested topic within the lore, with the majority of people believing that the Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar are separate species. The “Common Ancestor Theory”, as it is called within the lore, is not the majority opinion.
Yes, but it’s not wrong because that person isn’t Caldari. It’s wrong because that person is disrespecting their ancestors by not continuing their culture and legacy.
Yet they do, because they feel those people should be continuing their own culture instead of adopting the Caldari one.
Yes. Basically think PIE’s approach to hull choice restrictions, but applied to the entirety of society.
And the point of this thread is to point out why maybe they’re off their mark on some things retaining to their spirituality specifically
Sure, I haven’t denied that at all.
We’re having this discussion from the OOC perspective and not the IC perspective.
ic? No ■■■■ they would think this way. And that is part of the reason why I present this topic ooc first so we can look at this from the standpoints of writers and not the characters that would be submerged in these ways of thinking.
Imagine how much of a ■■■■■■■■■■■ this convo would be IC.
So let’s talk a second and just claim Wayism is 100% true (It’s not, it’s all subjective religion with no way to prove it)
Hyptotheically say it’s true… I’m sure the Caldari think this is the case if they’re the religious sorts.
An Amarrian dies and transitions to the spirit realm. It’s not heaven nessciarily, its whatever afterlife Wayists have in mind - their spiritual form is bound by the laws presented in Wyaist belief.
Now why would he disapproved of his decedent’s ■■■■■■■ off from the Amarrian faith now that he sees what actually awaits them on the other side? He spent his whole life believing the wrong religion, why would he throw shame down on his descendants for not doing the same?
Because it be tradition to have them continuing on living a lie?
I never disputed that they might be off the mark, but the thing about societies is that if enough people believe something, it tends to become a commonly accepted opinion that is taken into account when policy and legislation is created and enforced. If everyone woke up tomorrow thinking that the only acceptable colour for clothes was blue, we’d all be wearing it within the year, just like Nullsec.
From my point of view we are having an OOC conversation -about- the IC perspective. If you think I believe this ■■■■ out of character we’ve got a horrible case of misunderstanding going on bro.
The Caldari don’t believe in heaven. The Caldari believe that when they die, their spirit stays on this plane of existence, and follows their relatives around. This means that when what’s her name ICly got drunk on shore-leave and had to be fished out of the fountain by corporate security whilst singing bawdy ballads, essentially all of her ancestors were not mad, just disappointed.
Thing is that unless you are a Mary Sue, death is the end of the road, so we’re never gonna get any form of empirical evidence. The other thing is that faith does not have an evidence criteria. There is a religion which claims that there is a teapot orbiting the sun. There are people who think the earth is flat. Are they wrong? Obviously, but how would you prove it? This is sort of the same case.
My mistake then.
As I mentioned, there’s no way to prove anything regarding life beyond life. I agree with this statement. But I feel like the point I made is being missed
IF the Caldari believe that, yes - everyone has spiritual ancestors just like them that adhere to the same spiritual laws as their Wayist faith - Why would they assume they’re disrespecting their ancestors if they dropped their native faith to pick up Wayism?
Point of view - You’re an Amarrian that’s dead and enter the spiritual plane. You didn’t go to heaven as your Amarrian faith said you would, you’re in the Wayist version of the afterlife. Now your decedents generations later drop the Amarrian faith and try to be wayists.
Would you feel disrespected that they stopped following a religion that turned out to be wrong?
If the Caldari living today are in the belief that Everyone no matter if they’re Caldari or not dies and enter the spiritual plane much like their ancestors… Why would they assume they’re decedents are disrespecting their ancestors for changing faiths?
Thing is that the lore on Wayism never actually states that everyone enters the afterlife like the Caldari do. For all we know, Amarr might go to heaven, and Rogue Drones really are Sebiestor capsuleers who accidentally transferred their consciousness into a Breacher. But if we assume that everyone becomes a spirit after death, I think that the Caldari would find greater peace in knowing that someone’s ancestors are looking down and see their kids live a life that is similar to their own. Whether that person appreciates it or not is their problem. Life’s a ■■■■■ and then you die. No one said being a spirit was gonna be any better. On the bright side now that you’re invisible no one can stop you from hanging out in the women’s sauna.
Well that’s kinda what I’ve been trying to flesh out this whole time
What I’m about to say is from the spiritual perspective
If the Maker made all of this - All the stars and planets that humans call home. Then we all equally exist in the same universe the Maker left for everyone. Therefore we all fall under the same spiritual transition when we die regardless if we believed in it or not - No punishment for not believing it, it just happens when your time is up. It shouldn’t matter what cultured you were apart of, you exist in the same world as the others.
OOC I see no problem with that. IC Miran would probably think up some good ■■■■■■■■ like “But if the Maker created them over there, why do they have to come over here? Why wouldn’t they be happier with their own? Not like they ran out of space?”
Now combine this ontop of a Guristas supporter linked with Caldari citizen kidnapping making the suggestion.
Jokes aside, I think we arrived at a favorable destination with that chain of replies.
I do not entirely agree, you are still appearing to treat Wayism as the summation of Raata and thus to an extent Caldari culture.
The exclusionary elements of Caldari (and we must intuit at least some of those elements to be Raata in origin) have always seemed far more cultural than religious, for those who turn their back on their kin to be considered nothing and no-one makes a degree of sense when a people endure extraordinary and protracted hardship, I never understood it to be remotely related to the maker— more ‘this has always been so’
So referring all the way back to the start of this thread… While the Cold Wind chronicle is unreliable folklore - I’m willing to wager some of it is grounded in truth and just spiced up for the sake of well… Folklore.
Looking at this more realistically with that in mind, We have Caldari prime and two tribes warring it out, seeing one another as different for whatever reason they had and driving them into conflict with one another. Despite their differences however they have a shared faith in Wayism.
armies of these two sides meet to face one another. Spiritually they both see themshelves as Raata men, but their current governing power sees them as the Fuukiuye and Oryioni.
They war up and start fighting, and a blizzard sweeps on by in the fight and shrouds the men in snow - There is no voice from on high speaking to them, they’re all left there covered in snow with their armor’s identifying insignias covered - Creating a moment of confusion for an army that came here to swing metal at a guy with the wrong symbol on their chest or shoulder.
You don’t attack someone at random as they might actually be someone from your tribe. And in this moment of confusion, they start to see what’s left when you take away the insgnias of a culture or nation and see only that another human being remains.
Then you attribute this blizzard to Cold Wind and see then and there how ■■■■■■■■ this fight really is. Why let these symbols define who we are? Why let them separate us and force us into arms?
And while it didnt happen on the spot, maybe both sides turned home and contemplated this symbolic message from their divine and came together and was like “…■■■■ the ■■■■■■■■ man. We’re Raata before we’re Fuukiuye and Oryioni. Let’s unify and not feed into these primitive allegiances anymore.”
Now, Raata Culture had expanded beyond spirituality into more practical and immediate phsyical realm polices. But at it’s founding, the inception of the Raata as an identity is rooted in Wayism as the shared faith is what brought to warring groups to come together and put aside tribalistic ways of thinking
As people there brought RL examples then I think we can compare this with Japan’s Shinto?
As I understand, by itself it’s simply a folklore. But after Meiji Restoration state tried to find “national soul”, purify national beliefs, promote unity and patriotism and making other nationalistic stuff for strengthening central power and securing state from foreign influence. And Shinto played there certain ideological role being “truly japanese” thing while also stating that as according to folklore Emperor have direct descent from sun goddes Amaterasu then he is always right.
Indeed, more educated persons are free to correct me, but I think certain similiraties can be seen? And if so then we can say that what Caldari have today in regard of “Raata identity” is simply one of the bases for the artificial Caldari identity, created in response to Gallente while by itself real Raata can be in fact far from it.
While about Raata we know only that it existed and for a long time:
The Raata-Oryioni and Fuukiuye Empires join under one rule. The new empire is known as the Raata.
The Raata empire falls and is divided into myriad small states.
- From the Caldari Timeline
On a bit unrelated note I find it interesting that it’s Raata-Oryioni, not simply Oryioni that was one of precursors for Raata.
Interesting detail you bring here.
Though if I had make a wager on it based on my interpretation of Raata identity - The Oryioni were the originators of the Wayist faith and were on the cusp of the spiritual identity. And somehow this speitiaulity bled over into the Fuukiuye.
Afterall, it be unlikely for two separate groups to somehow come up with the same religion pre-contact. But likely for a source to export it and have outsiders adopt it.
Or hell, maybe there’s a source before the two groups and the Oryioni took it more to heart.
One third of the men fell, then another third. When only a fifth was still standing, Cold Wind felt his pain burn into fury
To borrow the words of someone more informed on the topic; ‘nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won’, inconclusive wars can have many of each— I do not think the sameness revealed by blizzard was necessarily Wayism, but that both peoples were shaped by the same wind and by the same war.
My interpretation is very much that Wayism is the lens the story is viewed through, not the object of it.