I may be misunderstanding this incorrectly so forgive me. I assume however you’re saying that the folklore story uses Wayism as a means to give the tale a bit of mysticism to it and the reality of the situation is that these two sides had a war, it was costly and they decided to merge.
Sure
That’s highly possible as a contributing factor for why they would merge after losing a bunch of manpower and another large scale conflict could mean obliteration. But that also doesn’t mean spiritual relief didn’t have any hand in this outcome.
A trend I see with many dark age societies is that they tend to be very superstitious about the world around them. In part due to a lack of scientific advancement to provide answers for why something’s are the way they are.
If this blizzard actually happened - Why wouldnt these people attribute this to Cold wind just doing his thing? They can do that ontop of also acknowledging the damage their conflicts are causing to each of them. Both of these things can be used as motivation to come together.
Spirtuality providing an identity, while the causalities providing a practical reason to come together.
As long as you keep in mind that they became a lot less willing to hug strangers after the whole Gallente Federation thing.
I think it is an excellent example to make, because the Japanese began doing this around the same time as the European nations did. Second half of the 19th century. The Caldari State actually has a direct reference to State-Shintoism (Which was different from regular Shintoism in the regard that the Japanese State had a lot of influence on what was preached between the start of the Meiji restoration and the end of the Second World War, which it used to further it’s authority. The most well known example of this is
Which has a similacrum in the Caldari State in the shape of:
but for some reason is much more exclusive, and thus counteracts the point of it’s existence to some degree.
Wellington!
I agree. In contrast to the Amarr Empire, Wayism takes an auxiliary support role within the State. Not the spotlight. The moral of the story is “Two bloodlines, one race”. This also happens to be it’s title, namely “From ”Two Bloodlines, one Race: the Raata spirit in the Deteis and Civire soul”, Lai Dai Press, YR87. Reprinted with permission.” This also happens to be an agenda which the Megacorporations have pushed via their education system since the formation of the Caldari State. Therefore I choose to believe that this is a case of the State using Wayism to push a political agenda. Considering how much they borrow from Japan, this would lend further strength to the comparison Timiko made to State-Shintoism from the Meiji Restoration era.
Now that we all agree (again) “proper” Caldari are nationalists pushing religion as a political agenda, an outlaw faction that wants to interpret Wayism as an inclusive religion can look to the source of the word “Wayism.”
The Chinese character “Dao” means “Way.” The literal translation of “Daoism” is “Wayism.” The cultural reference is unambiguous.
Daosim merged with Buddhism in China, entered Japan well over a thousand years ago, and became Zen. Zen can therefore be used as a source for the tenets of Wayism, and as a pattern for how Wayism can be exported to other cultures.
Nationalists using Wayism for political purposes does not change this, and in fact serves as an excellent basis for criticism of “proper” Caldari. Of course “proper” Caldari won’t like it, but outlaws do not have to be concerned with the feelings of those they have rebelled against.
A particular pillar within Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism and their associated cultures is filial piety; in the abstract, respect for one’s parents, elders, and ancestors—though almost without exception interpreted to encompass ones actions outside the home, ensuring that your actions bring a good name to your parents and ancestors.
For Wayism to bear more than the most superficial resemblance to the influences you would draw (influences I agree with) from would make strict adherence to it wholly incompatible with membership in an outlaw organisation; and the reason for the circling back to the same point can be found in the title, while it is conceivable for certain forms of Wayism to emerge shorn of key tenets—Raata is still not Wayism, it is a Caldari identity from a fixed time in their history.
I do not have a firm opinion on the morality of adopting a culture as a matter of choice, though with a culture as much as a religion it seems to me that to live a life in constant repudiation of the values you assert, would be intensely hypocritical, and rightly earn the scorn of those who set more stock by their values than you do.
I wanna present two nuggets of Lore that I completely forgot about
The Caldari who did not leave the union include tribal groups living amongst the Kaalakiota Peaks to citizens living in post-colonial settlements across the Federation. These individuals hold no identity or allegiance to the State whatsoever. Curious to many is the fact that these Caldari are much more traditional compared to those found in the State, at least in terms of Raata cultures and customs. These groups are collectivist in nature and tend to create governments that reflect this. The hands-off attitude the general Federation populace has to these specific Caldari due to long-entrenched sensitivities means these groups generally keep to themselves.
This isn’t my headcanon at this point, these are Fiction Portal and In-game sources more or less pointing out that there is a speration in identity AND culture between the Caldari and Raata with these tradtionalists on Caldari Prime not aligning themselves with the state and identify themselves with the Raata.
If this thread is explaining that Caldari is a national identity and not on bound by race, then these blurps saying that these ‘Caldari’ don’t identify with the State means they don’t identify as Caldari and instead identify as Raata. ‘Caldari’ being used in these descriptions as a bit of a racial identifier
And the little wind chime item gives me just as much implication that these communities have some stronger ties to Wayism
Your own citations speak of Raata and of those who hold to ‘ancient culture and customs’ living by ‘The oldest of Caldari ways’, in the context of this thread Wayism is most obvious by its omission.
There is a clear separation expanded on between the Caldari State and the Caldari people; ‘The Caldari who did not leave the union’ who ‘hold no identity or allegiance to the State’–holding more closely to ‘Raata cultures and customs’. I concede of course that the windchimes themselves are a reference to Wayism, and it is certainly probable that mountain tribes from the Kaalakiota Peaks are more philosophical in their concerns than Megacorporate employed Caldari from the State, I just do not think it means that being Wayist makes one Raata.
It’s not that it makes you Raata, it allows you to be Raata.
If you wanna be a Wayist and identify with a national or racial identity, that’s your choice to make. But if yoou wish to reject these labels of identifying with a nation or as a race, you can opt out and adopt Raata as a spiritual identity. Identifying with your spiritual self before the identity a nation can provide or the ethnic identity you’d inherit
Could you try to express why adopting Wayism would make someone Raata Caldari any more than my adopting Daoism would make me Ming Chinese? Because both ideas seem completely ridiculous to me.
I’ve never used Raata Caldari personally … The nuggets I showed above do use that but if anything that comes off as they’re Caldari (Which lore seems to be confused if that’s a national or ethnical identity) that do identify as Raata spiritually.
If you were Matari and identified with Minmatar on a ethical/National sense and were a Wayist, and identified spiritually - Raata Minamtar. Same apply to whatever other label that may exist, Amarr, Gallente, So on and so on.
Or you could just drop off the Racial/National part and just say Raata.
Claiming Caldari is a different story as that’s a National (Or ethnical depending on who you are) identity. so you’d either be born Caldari or be a citizen of that nation to say Raata Caldari as your identity. Is it a bit contradictory after everything I argued? To some extent, yes. But based off what is said about Wayism in the lore, there really is no reason why these divine figures would ever bound themselves to a man made institution or government, they’re entities of nature and nature recognizes no border or mortal authority.
Those are composite terms made from dynasties and eras that do not fit the national identities they’re attached to. Religion has nothing to do with them.
A Minmatar Wayist doesn’t spontaneously become a member of an ancient Caldari culture… I would not have so thought at least.
To be honest, I can’t make any argument for these cultures and religions because I’m not knowledgeable in them enough to come and make a case for them. If you wanna declare this delegitamzes any point I made, that’s your call - But so far I feel as if I myself have consistently kept this conversation in topic with Wayism and the surronding lore in New Eden.
Wayism to me has no reason to be bound to one culture or society. Again, it’s a entity of nature and nature exists on any world in New Eden. tThere’s already a tidbit sayingg that yes, Wayists believe the winds flow on more planets than just Caldari Prime - So they would blow on Amarr Prime, OR minmatar prime and any planet that has life whatever it be plants or animals (And there’s a small line suggesting that there are way way more spiritual entites beyond just winds, so even if it’s a world with no oxygen but some life, hey - Guess that counts.)
And this is headcanon - But I believe the mindset of the Raata Empire was shaped by their spiritual beliefs. If not completely, then it had a influence. Adopting a spirituality now and allowing that to shape your worldveiw and how you precieve the world around you, Is enough to be of that culture.
I am not disputing the potential universalism of Wayism, Raata is described in the lore as a historical Caldari nation; traditionalist Caldari who yet reside on their homeworld and live by the traditions of their ancestors are described in your own citations as ‘Raata Caldari’.
I have genuinely no idea why you are so determined to define a historic nation which lasted in setting for three and a half millennia not by its culture or customs, but by contemporary understanding of Wayism, is that something you are able to articulate?
Raata=/=Wayism, I cannot make that perspective any clearer–and every time I make it you tell me that Wayism does not care for nationality.
It’s because I’m not capable of getting a In-world history book and learn every single thing about the Raata Empire as it’s a thing In the lore that is breifly mentioned and rarely ever fleshed out so based off what scraps that are left on the floor I use them as a means to expand upon what it might’ve been based off what CCP has put out to give us some insight
And Multiple times I have admitted that what I’m arguing may be incorrect, but what information can be gleamed, I’m under the impression that I delivered in the OP.
And what I’m stating is that the Raata identity was born out of Wayist belief as a identity for followers to come under so they can do without the identities of race or nation. Yes, there’s the Raata Caldari bit and I do admit it’s a detail I overlooked - But I think I made a decent case for it above. I don’t think I’m saying Raata and Wayism are the same thing… I’m trying to say that Wayism is a contributing factor in the creation of the Raata identity
Neither am I, but we must assume that in those three and a half thousand years that they had some history and culture; given the fact that we are told that the Raata Caldari are more traditional than their State counterparts we can intuit (admittedly uncertainty) the more conservative ethics of the Caldari to be Raata in origin. We do not know what the culture and customs of the Raata Empire were, though given the total lack of prominence of Wayism in the descriptions of those Caldari who live by them, it appears that both known branches succeeding the Raata Empire are defined more by their culture and custom than by their spirituality–keeping that in mind, it is extremely difficult to make the case that their originating empire of those branches was the polar opposite.
I’ma make a vague real world comparassion here, I know what I said about keeping this on point and within New Eden. But when It comes to the word “Tradition” I feel that’s a word that’s a buzzword used by conseravtive groups when lobbying for the values they want. And yes, Conservative and means tradition are technically the same word - But when I see “Tradition” used I don’t think it inherently means polices that Conservative groups would be in favor for.
It’s just whatever the “Old-ways” were and you do put in there that it’s all uncertain, but you could have a society that’s deemed 'Liberal" by some people’s standards and those living in that society will claim these ways are “Tradition” to them.
However, I admit it could go your way. This is something that may never be answered and can just go both ways.
I don’t think I made the case the case that the two societies are polar opposites. Merely that the two cultures have some differences. A big difference I feel is that the Raata empire was way more into spirituality at the time and based off what I perceive Wayism to be, might have influenced alot of their customs, traditions and mindset in their small bubble that was Caldari Prime.
The Jump to the Caldari identity came in the form of severe widespread culture shock with their contact and falling though with the Gallente. So while I’m not denying the two societies can have plenty of similarities, I am suggesting that the Caldari is Not spot on the same as the Raata. I don’t expect a society to go though that and just remain the same, more so when this is the Caldari entering a new scientific age in space. And when comes radical scientific advancement, ■■■■ like spirituality starts to loose it’s influence - Unless you’re the Amarr where they institutionalized (and updated) religion into their government - because you’ll now have people who can point to something and tell you “I know how this works, And I can tell you right away it ain’t spirits.”
You repeatedly made the case that Raata culture was defined by their spiritualism, which is at odds both with the Caldari of the State, and the Raata Caldari of the Kaalakiota peaks–for both of whom custom and culture are what the lore informs us is definitive to.
My case is that Wayism played a way bigger role in the Raata Empire than people are willing to give it credit for. If that means they’re defined solely by spiritualism? ■■■■ it, sure.
Sure
IS my argument really at odds with them? If anything All I’ve done is made the argument that these communities would be practicing Wayism based off all my previous arguements regarding the Raata and Wayism.
I don’t recall ever denying that the State still carries the DNA of the Raata Empire culturally, but after generations upon generations and culture shock the Gallente brought, the Caldari State is a different kind of society entirely
Know what? ■■■■ it, I guess I am saying they’re polar opposites. Dark age feudal empire with a emperor figure at the helm Vs a Space-age Corporatocracy. Again, I’m not denying similarities the Caldari have with the Raata of the past. But the Caldari have to have evolved after this time and everything they’ve been though to become something new.
Do you believe it was dark age for the entire thirty-five hundred years?
Systems of governance are no more a summation of a people’s culture than their prevalent religion, both are as much informed by culture and custom as they inform them.
It is indicated that the culture, customs and values of the Raata era (vague as the terminology is, logic dictates Raata at their cultural height) greatly inform Caldari culture, customs and values, that the Caldari largely live in a different place and very different circumstances does not erase the notable cultural continuity.
