Just to clarify, your point is that because there was an allegorical blizzard in an origin myth for the Raata Empire, Wayism must have completely defined their society and any Wayist who wants it can claim a Raata identity because reasons?
What is wrong with you?
I literally just said there might’ve been other ■■■■ at play, but Wayism was a contributing factor in the Raata identity being conceived. It was a factor in all of it and not something completely unrelated as you make it out to be.
Reasons being that they identify with the spiritual teaching and wise to reject National or racial identities in favor of identifying spiritually with the world… So yes, reasons.
If Wayism so strongly rejects national or racial identity, and the Raata Empire was so shaped by Wayism; why is it that millennia later, the Civire and Deteis remain ethnically distinct?
I would speculate that perhaps identity may be an important part of Caldari and Wayist ethics. For that matter, taking one not due to you may be frowned on.
Again
Because I feel as if the Caldari identity is a regression into a tribalistic xenophobic mindset - Which is in part due to their terrible experience with the Gallente. The culture shock that came with that entire experience has molded the Caldari into a different culture and mindset
That doesn’t account for three and a half thousand years of remaining distinct during the Raata period.
Supposedly
Hell they went by different names entirely at one point
So an origin story steeped in allegory is sufficient to make sweeping and insistent claims about what defines Raata, but the two mythic leaders being the clear archetypes of the ethnically distinct Caldari bloodlines is a nope because it doesn’t conform to your view?
The story is all I have to go because CCP hasn’t fleshed out the Raata lore anymore (along with other lore sources that I brought up) and based of what I can piece together I came to a conclusion that the Raata were a spiritual sorts and were prolly influenced by that. While I use the story, I try to incorporate that with other lore pieces
That’s the impression I’m given after thinking about this long enough.
As for the bloodlines? Don’t really have a problem with that, that’s just what the Caldari went with in their identity. I’m not really looking at that saying it needs to conform to my view.
Have you considered going to their actual influences for ideas? Because when we just make things up they tend to pick up a lot of personal
Fiction itself is made up. And Lore is what’s “fact” and Again… I’m using lore sources and pieces it together to expand upon the idea. So while I’m “Making things up” I’m using official fiction to sorta guide what I’m talking about.
I don’t think at any point in this whole conversation have I presented my impressions s flawless truth and admitted to the possibility of it being wrong. Because ultimately I’m not given the official full picture CCP has in mind.
As for looking at the real world influences? Sure, I could look more into that.
Are you familiar with the difference between role ethics and virtue ethics?
Virtue ethics are along the lines of individual character traits where Role ethics are more about groups traits (Like families)?
This is something I’m welcomed to being wrong about and hearing your explanation for.
In role ethics, moral worth comes from fulfillment of roles, parent, child, in Caldari terms I suspect employee is up there.
Caldari ethics have a distinctly East Asian feel, and viewing them through that lens I find things to make more sense.
Edit: I failed to mention that role ethics are far more common in Confucian influenced belief systems.
This doesn’t necessarily come off as a unique thing to the Caldari though. Sure they might be the ones that brag and put it up on a pedestal more than others - But This doesn’t sound like something that wouldn’t exist in literally any other culture or society. They all might have their own take or twist on it, but if I’m understanding this right - You’re deemed an upstanding person not by your individual traits, but by playing the role within that society or group efficiently and to the exception .
Not unique no, but there is a certain rigidity in Caldari society; fulfillment of your role, or turning your back, there seems little room for intermediate options.
However appealing it may be to make that rigidity a reactionary product of anti-gallente xenophobia, it does not seem to be, a CDS member being killed for failure to observe etiquette springs to mind.
The kind of ethics we see in Caldari lore bear greatest similarity to some of those prevalent in East Asia, beliefs thought to have a common root in pre-Confucian ancestor veneration.
Certain things must be intuited from the lore we have, and while it is likely that the Gallente-Caldari War made interpretations of long held cultural practices more xenophobic than they may previously have been, the practices we see are too widely accepted after too short a time for them to be purely reactionary; and if we allow the beliefs a fraction of the nuance of those they so clearly borrow from, it would further erode any notion that they are a recent construct.
So where you’re going with this I believe is that you’re saying the Raata took role ethics very seriously and their identity is a reflection of this.
… Sure.
Personally I don’t see that as a sole defining characteristic of the Raata much as you dint think spirtuality is. But I dont even think this hurts my arguement. I dare say it supports it.
As you agree… This expectation for people in a group society to play a role and contribute isn’t a unqiue thing. It can exist well beyond the Caldari and Raata. It doesn’t matter if you are a real sweet person that loves animals and never hurt a soul, if you’re not pulling your weight and contributing to the group or society somehow and just taking reosurces as much as the person that is playing their role - It’s gonna reflect horribly on you as a person.
And this can be the case for any society in New Eden from the Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar and Amarr.
They’re reactions may very from “Oh this dude is just good for nothing waste of oxygen” (Gallente prolly) to “This dude is literally the enemy and needs to be dealt with and removed from our soceity” (Caldari Prolly)
This applies even to the Pirate cultures. The Guristas (a cultural offshoot of the Caldari mind you) would prolly react just as extremely to someone not playing a role in their Group. You ain’t bringing in the money and wasting resources? You’re gonna get whacked and replaced with the next man. Doesn’t matter how cool you were at parties and very likeable - You ain’t contributing, you’re gonna be dealt with.
If Raata are defined by their role ethics and their harsh expectations for members to contribute efficiently and meet expectations of them - that’s nothing only the Caldari can understand. It’s something that any human being is capable of learning and understanding regardless of where they come from.
I said
And you thought
Confucian role ethics, which are within the sinosphere universally influential are a good deal less simple than an expectation of contribution.
For instance Li, a concept for which we have no analogous word is generally translated as
‘ceremony, ritual, decorum, rules of propriety, good form, good custom’ and Confucius’ own discussions on following li include learning, tea drinking, titles, mourning, and governance; to me the incident in which a CDS representative was dismembered for a breach in etiquette strongly suggests similarly all-encompassing and prescriptive propriety in the Caldari.
That is not to claim that Confucian ethics apply wholesale, rather a likelihood the Caldari are similarly convinced that propriety is what facilitates a functional and orderly society.
So far, I see no reason why those “Raata Caldari” on Caldari Prime would consider religion, biological heritage and cultural heritage any less divisible than “State Caldari” on New Caldari Prime. If anything, those people on Caldari Prime would not have had the unifying force of the State to hammer them into the mould, and as a result, they might be as hostile to one another as the clans of Scotland were historically.
There is not enough evidence in the lore to support this kind of epistemic claim.
The Caldari do not distinguish between the two. Wayism is a facet of Caldari heritage, just as traditions and genetics are. Those are an inseparable one-stop package to them.
To the Caldari, it is very real. This is why they view it as a part of their heritage. This is why Civire and Deteis do not intermarry. Even in real life, there are discernable differences between populations from specific on the planet. This is why I do not expect to suddenly suffer from sickle cell disease. However, we do not allow such things to define us IRL because there are other things that are held in greater importance, such as a person’s citizenship, their willingness to behave according to the law, their results in the education system, their effort in the workforce and whether or not they’re an asshole. The important thing to remember, is that unlike the Gallente, the Caldari do not think like we do. They are a collectivist society which attaches a lot of value to rigid adherence to a cultural baseline which includes both traditions, religion and ethnicity. If you fervently believe that all of your dead relatives since time immemorial are floating about you, observing you and judging your actions, you’re not going to be like “Hm, lemme just run off to the Fed to marry a redhead and spread freedom.”
Right, but you’re forgetting that both the Raata Caldari and the State Caldari share the same root. The same way that the Dutch and the Germans share the same root. There are differences, but much like with the Gallente and the Caldari, those differences are mostly there because a federal democracy forced cringe upon them.
No, this is about you saying that Wayism and/or the Raata identity are not tied to the Civire and the Deteis. To which I say that the Civire and the Deteis would disagree.
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Which I admitted to multiple times in stating that all I’ve done is taken multiple lore sources, made connections between them and used that as a grounds for the argument I’m presenting and admitted that - Much like everyone else - the full story isn’t known due to CCP not fleshing it out to that extent. Therefore what I’m claiming is not factual truth, Instead an informed theory with official content to support it.
Of course they don’t.
We’ve already established they’re allowed to think what they want. I’m arguing beyond what just they think
I don’t think I refuted this.
Civire and Deteis are groups of human beings no different the Amarr and Minmatar. Only difference is a label they adhere to. These labels are man-made and have no baring on the natural order because at the end of the day, everyone is a human being - If people in universe wanna say otherwise, that’s their problem. I don’t think the EVE gate theory needs to be proven true for someone to look at a guy in another nation and say “There’s nothing different between me and him.”
Culture only separates us in that people do and see things differently, but these things are nothing any human being are capable of learning and understanding regardless of their place of origin.
If someone wants to say “No they can’t only we can” That’s a them problem. I don’t think that makes what I’m saying incorrect still
Sure, as we’ve established, of course in the IC setting there is going to be disagreement about this.
Does that mean they’re correct? No. Does it mean I"m correct? No.
This is just a way more nuanced subject than it’s lead on to be.
I think the main disconnect between you and the others still persevering with this discussion, is that while there is significant nuance in culture, in your insistence that all are equally entitled to adoption of a cultural legacy you are taking a position that not only fails to acknowledge that nuance, but (much as I lack any outrage because it is an incomplete and fictional culture) asserts an inviolable right for anyone of any ethnicity to appropriate the cultural and religious history of the Caldari.
If we were treating it as a real culture, I do not think any amount of kumbaya we’re all the same tho would make what you are insisting ok.