It is not about labels. It is about the norms and values that they uphold. To the Caldari, it doesn’t matter whether the Gallenteans talk about liberation and individualism, or whether the Amarrians talk about reclamation, or whether the Triglavians talk about bioadaption and alignment within the flow. To the Caldari, all of that simply means taking someone and detaching them from their culture, and that is worse than death. To be Caldari is to embrace what has been passed down to you by your ancestors, and pass it on to your children. It isn’t a T-shirt they can take off when they feel like it. They also work hard in order to earn a better place for themselves, and ensure the group, as well as their kids, are better off than they left them. And if they have to fight and die to ensure their people will remain free and able to continue the chain that links them to their ancestors, they will do so. When this happens, there will be no mourning, for they have joined the ancestors in spirit form. That is how they do.
No I’m specifically talking about Raata and that in my intrepation of how Raata culture is created and conceived that there is something within that opens the door for more adoption when you broaden the scope. How? Though wayism which I feel was a fueling factor in the Raata identity. And is a spiritual faith that can easily be broaden no matter how heretical it comes off.
This is sorta why I got annoyed at you shoehorning Romans in here previously as a “Gotcha!” moment as i wasn’t talking about the Romans and arguing for Raata as I think there’s something in it itself that opens the door.
If what I’m suggesting is heresy… That’s fine by me. What ima aurging is that there is room for a heretical way of thinking that’s still logical.
I’m gonna go one more time and lay out my argument.
So I believe that the Raata identity - Which isn’t backed by a full picture and backed by what scraps exist of the lore and therefore not factual 100% the case - is an identity made with the help of Wayist belief. I believe the two things are tied based of my arguement presented in the OP.
Wayism is a faith about nature, the natural order of the world around them. The Caldari - For their reasons - have a insular view of Aayism but Wayism itself can easily be expanded upon with the simple logic of
Due to this being a faith of nature, this is why I argue that deties and civire are just labels and hold no baring on the natural order. These labels shouldn’t have any weight once the Scope of spirtuality is expanded.
The Caldari will think what they will - I’m not arguing that they should think otherwise, I’m arguing that this interpretation holds merit and it isnt a clear cut case that Caldari know what’s up and there’s room for another intrepation regardless of how heretical it may appear.
If you agree with this - then we have nothing further to argue about. This is what I’m trying to suggest. Caldari can have a problem with it, but does that make what I’m suggesting any less plausible?
Raata is a cultural legacy, and the cultural legacy I was referring to. Your interpretation, or at least your expression of it is that Raata legacy and identity belong to Wayists because of your own conceptions about the irrelevance of race and ethnicity.
What you are saying, in no uncertain terms is that it does not matter how that culture sees itself, all have equal claim; if you were making this argument in character, “the Caldari can be as mad about it as they like” would have merit. This is an out of character discussion though, and what you are doing is constructing a case to dilute or delegitimise Caldari claims to their own cultural history.
Nobody has argued with you on this. Raata is still not Wayism.
Good to know racial identity is irrelevant… I hope if nothing else that re-reading that provoked some self-reflection on what you are actually saying.
No it is not, but not for that reason; it is not a case about them knowing what is up at all, it is their legacy, their history, and the only thing keeping your arguments from intensely distasteful ground is the fictional nature of the cultural and racial identities in question.
“I am taking your culture because I understand it better than you” is the IC premise you are currently advocating for, consider for a moment how anyone to whom cultural identity matters might react to that.
I cannot emphasize this more.
Of course, Caldari society shall never be viewed from modern “Western” outloook, which, indeed, somehow resembles more Gallente point of views than Caldari. One cannot just define themselves in Caldari society, there is no “self-identification”, which Caldari would likely consider some sort of disgusting filth, etc. In such heavy collectivised societies your identification is assigned to you by your peers or superiors.
And that cultural adherence is enforced primarily by the peers and people themselves, in meritocratic society you need to show you’re better than your peers to climb on top, and if you do something that others don’t like (breaking cultural stereotypes) - there’s no way you will climb or will be even heard.
In that light I also would like to point that the treason for Caldari should look like one of the worst demerits a human could commit. So, of course, if you run away to Federation to marry someone will be considered as pure evil and crime against Universe itself. It’s just a thing to be despised for by every other Caldari.
With that in mind, being Caldari equates to being State Caldari. If you betray the State - you betray the family, the comrades, the culture, the ancestors, the way of life, etc etc etc…
So, if some person ran away, say, to Federation or Gurista from the State and encounters a State Caldari, what would the traitor expect else from Caldari except spit to their face?
Honestly with what I’m getting at they would have just as might right and claim to everyone else.
Do clarify? Yes, I don’t think racial identities are real and entirely made up social constructs. When it comes to nature, they don’t see “race.” only society does.
And I’m to believe the two things are more connected than people think they are.
What is distasteful about this conversation in me saying that based off my interpretation that I have laid out that there is something within Raata itself that opens the door for larger interpretation and acceptance.
Then that makes me have to refer back to the lore tidbit about the Raata communes back in the Federation who don’t identify with the State in any capacity.
It doesn’t seem like the State has any exclusive rights over the identity of Raata OR Caldari for that matter
Let’s return to the start
The Raata identity is a spiritual Identity, not a Caldari Identity
Caldari don’t have exclusive rights on Raata heritage? Sure, no questions. Suha or somebody else states that Raata is for everyone? Why not, you show good clear logic for this after all.
But there comes A Question™: would Raata agree with that?
First, returning to the “Cold Wind”.
He blew for many autumns among the Raata. He blew for many autumns until Deteaas heard him and made a flute with the bamboos, and K’vire heard him and made a harp from his bow, and they taught the other men to listen.
According to this folklore Deteaas and K’vire, leaders of Oryioni and Fuukiuye tribes… Was Raata themselves even before reunification. And Raata roots goes to the Kaalakiota Peaks. This way we can say about geographical definition of Raata — people from Kaalakiota Peaks or those leaded by such. As was noted before, it’s one family of people that formed Raata… Again, according to questionable piece of folklore.
Second, even while religion can be forming for a nation there still exist something else: traditions, customs, rules. I don’t think that person can turn into Raata by following Wayism. Even more, certain branches of Wayism as I’m sure that branches and interpretations and “heresies” exist and possibly not all are regarded as “canon”. Still can help considerably… But not enough by itself.
In the end I would say that to turn into Raata one should go to Kaalakiota Peaks, find those Raata tribes and be recognized as Raata by them. Yes, this implies that State Caldari are not very Raata as I think. Successors, yes, but not sure if real Raata.
Except Wayism is called that because it is the way of the Caldari people. There is no reason why traditions, customs and rules cannot be incorporated within it.
I would also argue that you don’t need to go to Caldari Prime to get acknowledged as such, assuming such a thing was even possible. Which it isn’t. As you have stated, both the Deteis and the Civire were already Raata before the split between them. After the Empire fell and the Gallente committed shenanigans, the Megas ensured that they returned to that baseline. One race. The Caldari in the state might be a tiny bit less trad, but that doesn’t mean that there will be radical differences between the two, like a radical departure. Not dishonouring your ancestors, and maintaining cultural purity would still be important for both. The difference is that the Caldari State exists in the present, rather than being stuck in the past in a little valley.
I strongly dispute the good clear logic, but other than that I would agree with your assessment.
With particular reference though to
I suspect most State Caldari do not self-identify as Raata, it is their history and legacy rather than their identity, at least by my reckoning.
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