The scarcity move hurt PVP availability. Time to change that

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Aisha_Katalen

People who don’t want to pvp and don’t do it now also won’t do it if prices of ships were lower.

This is somewhat true but isn’t the whole story. Also, trying to force the issue onto the lines of “PvP good, people who don’t PvP bad” as you, Destiny and a whole bunch of others try to do is foolish and out of touch with the reality of the game.

The simple fact is that players, in general, are very good at games. The players of EVE regularly build wealth, ships, conquer territory, exploit flaws in the code - all at a pace that CCP can barely even figure out what’s happening, much less keep up with.

The key issue here is that CCP and some forumites have a totally incorrect view of PvP - as something that players should be doing and they’re playing wrong if they don’t.

PvE players, miners, haulers, builders and industrialists literally built most of EVE. They’re the largest chunk of the population and the main source of income. They’re the most valuable commodity in EVE, and PvP players are frankly just there to provide a dash of spice to the boring process of maintaining the EVE economy.

The problem isn’t the price of ships - although cheap ships encourages more PvP than expensive ones, for sure. And it isn’t that “PvE players will never under any circumstances PvP”.

For the most part, people play games to experience a feeling of accomplishment, of moving forward and taking effective action, of making progress with their characters and goals.

PvE play is popular because, as grindy and usually boring as it is, it “feels” like progress. Even when the math shows they’re literally grinding for the equivalent of $2 per hour (or less), that’s ignored because it’s an emotional thing, not a rational numbers thing. Progress feels good, loss feels bad.

The missing element is that CCP has never more than half-finished their game and doesn’t even know how to. And they have some weird Icelandic nostalgia for Viking mentality, so to them PvP means “raid pillage and burn, winner take all, loser rots on the ground”. That’s the way they’ve designed the game, and that’s why the vast majority of the player base doesn’t partake in PvP.

For the average player, EVE PvP offers no incentive or gain. So they avoid it. It’s really as simple as that.

Re-work combat so that a typical player sees some advantage, gain or progress in taking part in PvP, and you’ll get more PvP.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

@Kezrai_Charzai

as something that players should be doing and they’re playing wrong if they don’t.

Hardly. I just say they should be prepared in case pvp shows up.

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Kezrai_Charzai

The simple fact is that players, in general, are very good at games. The players of EVE regularly build wealth, ships, conquer territory, exploit flaws in the code - all at a pace that CCP can barely even figure out what’s happening, much less keep up with.

If you think the average EVE player is good then I don’t know what to tell you.

GROUPS can have people, very specific people, who ARE good: THEY make the plans, THEY coordinate and lead. The rank and file just tend to be clueless AF, literal dumb fcks without any understanding.

Some of those are new(er) players so it’s understandable, some of them are just super casuals who don’t really care too much which, again, is completely defensible. But a majority of them are 10+ year players who are still, to this day, entirely clueless on anything even the stuff they do as a chosen play style.

They do not know the why or how but they just do, mostly in a terrible manner, and while some had the bright idea to read a guide on it they just copied that, without understanding the why of things. It’s why all these amazing producers who make great ships and tons of iskies are unable to adapt to changes so they have to cry about it on the forums: they don’t KNOW how to adapt because there isn’t a meme filled guide yet they can just copy.

Go sit on the Jita undock, fit a ship scanner and check people’s fits. at least 40% of the fits you’ll see are complete moron fits, flown by older players. They’re clueless. And then realise that the only reason you CAN scan them is because they don’t have undocking BM’s… in their multibillion costing BS, haulers and freighters.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

@Kezrai_Charzai

making progress

yah but that is an error
the uber sexy omg i wet my pants dev CCP guard once sang a song about

Some say it’s more the trip than the destination

there is also the best ever

Hey girl, come fly with us, that’s an invitation
Don’t be afraid of a little death and exploitation
Killing, it’s just the means of communication

other amazing guy once said

@tutucox_Khamsi

we are the immortals . Why do you want money? Why do you want safety ? Why do you want fake skills ? Why do you want a job? Be wild . Be free . Adopt the punk anarchic FU mentality . You are not being bad because of it , its just the RP part of the MMORPG . The new meta is to have fun . Do everything you want . Take what you want… Sounds nice eh?

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Aisha_Katalen

The rank and file just tend to be clueless AF, literal dumb fcks without any understanding.

Yes, I get that it’s very, very important to you, Destiny, Gix and others to repeat, endlessly, that you’re smart and everyone else is dumb. And yet I note that with all this “they know nothing, they can’t PvP, can’t adapt, they can’t even figure out how to undock” nonsense… that markets are still full, equipment is built, moons are mined, and 97% of players continue on doing business every day without a care what you and a dozen other forum elitists think.

@tutucox_Khamsi

yah but that is an error

You can trot out all the memes you want and quote your own posts for reference if you like. It won’t change the fact that people don’t PvP if PVP doesn’t offer them something they’re interested in.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

@Kezrai_Charzai

You can trot out all the memes you want and quote your own posts for reference if you like. It won’t change the fact that people don’t PvP if PVP doesn’t offer them something they’re interested in.

no one is asking them to PVP
but progression in EVE is an illusion
the end game to progression is boredom and quitting

not saying that the secret is PVP
the secret is interacting with the sandbox , having fun , enjoying the journey

one can roleplay scrooge mcduck and extract satisfaction from being a rich bastard cornering the market and play eve for 10 years and never undock

that said eve is not a “normie” MMO the real “progression” comes only from the inside

and btw i made the lao tzu using your quote because i love it , its a nice quote, maybe in other topics i will post once a wise girl said and quote you

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@tutucox_Khamsi

and btw i made the lao tzu using your quote because i love it , its a nice quote

Yes and many of your posts are quite amusing, that’s cool. Just saying that because something sounds cool doesn’t make it real.

“Progression” in this case doesn’t mean “levelling up” or “having more”. It means “getting something you value out of the game”.

You say “hey just enjoy the journey”, but people won’t enjoy a journey on a hot, overcrowded train with uncomfortable seats where every 2 hours, they have to get out and push to keep the thing going.

People enjoy the journey when the journey is giving them something they value. If EVE isn’t doing that then they board another train.

Guess what? Ticket sales are way down on this train. It’s CCP that needs to adapt, not the players.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

@Kezrai_Charzai

It’s CCP that needs to adapt, not the players.

CCP needs to stop making things for the players
especially the NPC shenanigans that i hate so much
the original idea of the game is players making things
its a sandbox , go there and build or destroy a castle
the more fixed systems the less unique EVE is

CCP also needs to be more open in the promotion material , lots of players join EVE expecting a space simulator with “epic” battles and lots of “content” wen in reality its just an old MMO were the brutal nature of the rules allow any player to forge their path and being what they want , a incredible level of freedom and fairness , don’t matter who are you all have the same chance

more rules = less freedom , like i said before its a terrible world to be if it was real life , but is a exciting world to be because its all fake , kid play , fairy tale

if you think about it you will notice that no one wants the space pirate , pos classic humanity universe to be tamed and boring

there are Minecraft servers more cruel and sand boxy than modern EVE , and some people clame for less and less freedom , one day nothing good will remain , and its impossible to transform EVE in a good, modern, viable, on rails game because there is lots of better modern on rails games already

there is not lots of EVEs , thats why it lasted for so long

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Kezrai_Charzai

that markets are still full, equipment is built, moons are mined, and 97% of players continue on doing business every

I never stated otherwise. The point is that all that happens through sheer repetition, having learned HOW to do things but not necessarily WHY they’re doing them as they do it. They are all fixed situations that work well with fixed and repeatable actions and solutions. Push buttan, receive isk/goods.

And again, for casual players that is fully understandable but we are talking about something (how to get people to pvp) that’s just not applicable to super casuals. The second something changes that requires those players to adapt and adjust they can’t do it. Partly due to inertia (which is fully understandable) but also very much because they lack the deeper understanding needed to actually assess the core issue and how to adapt.

Remember when scarcity happened and people freaked out about changed production costs, changes in requirements etc etc and how it was all “wrong” and ccp should “fix it”? They were unable to think on their feet and adapt, to them is was just “wrong” instead of realising the new situation actually was “the new right”. People who were capable of adjusting and figuring out the new opportunities did amazingly well, all while the rage threadnaught grew by 100s of posts per day.

Early adopters do well, most people are NOT early adopters and need to be convinced and taught, very slowly and probably with a guide filled with memes, about what to do and change. Which brings us to the subject at hand, pvp:

pvp is nothing BUT continuous adaptation to a changing situation where through knowledge, effort, experience and self reliance you adjust your choices and actions to get the preferred outcome. There is no “push buttan, receive win” (other than ganking) and that is why for most people it’s just not a thing, and that is completely fine. There’s nothing wrong with that.

People should just stop making posts about how players would pvp more if costs were lower because it’s a lie and just reeks of ulterior motives for personal gains.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@MB_ThePhotographer

Hardly. I just say they should be prepared in case pvp shows up.

This thread is starting to smell like someone disgorged a steaming pile of “everyone else should be playing like me” argument allegations.

And I’m always like the first person to say that no, I don’t want everyone else playing like me. That would be an absolute nightmare. I’d never be able to get anything done that way. No, I want the carebears to play exactly like carebears do, because both my efficiency and my enjoyment of the game are directly correlated with how badly and ignorantly they play, and how many of them there are. Like if the game had a 99% carebear ratio instead of the 90% or so it does today, that sounds like an absolute win to me (as long as I can still murder them).

@Aisha_Katalen

Go sit on the Jita undock, fit a ship scanner and check people’s fits. at least 40% of the fits you’ll see are complete moron fits, flown by older players. They’re clueless. And then realise that the only reason you CAN scan them is because they don’t have undocking BM’s… in their multibillion costing BS, haulers and freighters.

It’s absolutely surreal how badly these people fit their ships and play the game. I’ve pretty much stopped fitting for defense in my hunting setups entirely. I don’t need to. I see maybe one decent setup out of every hundred I kill. And their piloting skills are even worse. Most of the time I don’t even get engaged back, I assume because they’re basically suffering heart-attacks from the non-consensual PvP and are unable to press any buttons. When they do engage back, it consists literally of turning on all their modules right away and (very obviously) putting me on approach. When there’s a few of them, a lot of them get scared and break and run away before the battle is even close to being decided. Like if there are four of them, and I tackle one, maybe one friend will stay and two will just warp away and not come back. And then the friend that stayed will break range during the time I’m killing the initial target to the point they’re not damaging me because they’re too scared to hold the line and are getting ready to warp away once my initial target is dead (or often even before that happens).

If these people fit their ships properly and/or utilized some basic combat tactics that didn’t come out of a level 4 mission guide, I wouldn’t be able to get away with even a tenth of the ■■■■ I do. I’d be taking losses all the time. Mind you these are null-sec alliance vets, often with characters that are older than mine. AKA the “elite PvPers” of the game that forum carebears tell me I should look up to and aspire to be like.

If I’m the no-skill griefer pussy and these people are all Chad PvP gods, then why am I killing them in ships two classes below theirs, or killing their combat ships in a hauler? Oh, right, it’s probably because I’m “being dishonorable” and attacking them when they’re “not ready for it,” and should “man up” and “go to null-sec where the real PvPers are” where I can take a ticket and wait three and a half hours for them to get the requisite amount of people into their capital gang so that they can dunk on my lonesome Thorax.

[Io_Koval]

@Destiny_Corrupted

so that they can dunk on my lonesome Thorax.

Hey I have a KM of that – not capitals mind you, but I seem to recall several marauders plus recons dunking my solo Thorax robbing an ESS.

[Ramona_McCandless]

Im going to live by that principle even more than I have already

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@tutucox_Khamsi

CCP also needs to be more open in the promotion material , lots of players join EVE expecting a space simulator with “epic” battles and lots of “content” wen in reality its just an old MMO

Yes this is true. It irritates me every time I see CCP advertising EVE with videos like this:

EVE Online: Citadel Cinematic Trailer

when the reality of EVE gameplay is more like this:

- YouTube

Do they actually expect new players to fall for flashy cinematics of “Star Wars” space combat and not notice the difference when they play the game? And leave? “We have to lie to you to get you to try the game” isn’t really the best player experience to start out on.

@tutucox_Khamsi

its impossible to transform EVE in a good, modern, viable, on rails game

I don’t know why you assume that the only possible transformation for EVE is to turn it into a themepark MMO. How about adding more sand to the sandbox? How about giving players more freedom? How about recognizing the reasons people play games at all, and incorporating those into an open PvP sandbox? How about simply making EVE a better EVE?

These things can be done. Just not by a fossilized outmoded design team using third-tier talent and “management by shouting louder and being obscure” decision making. When I said CCP needs to adapt, I mean they need to change the way they design and implement the game.

[Uriel_the_Flame]

There’s only one thing better than an epic space battle… an epic space battle taking a dozen hours or even several.

[Ramona_McCandless]

It already looks better, isnt that enough? Because thats apparently enough for some

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

All Scarcity had done to New Eden was to shift the focus away from undocking.

[ResonanceOfWar]

@Kezrai_Charzai

Do they actually expect new players to fall for flashy cinematics of “Star Wars” space combat and not notice the difference when they play the game? And leave? “We have to lie to you to get you to try the game” isn’t really the best player experience to start out on.

Except when you play in low sec its a lot closer to the trailer than null is thats for sure way to many people. Put up with blob warfare for the first few years of eve and got over it quick.

But yea I hope they make it more sandy and less boxy.

[ResonanceOfWar]

@Kezrai_Charzai

PVP doesn’t offer them something they’re interested in.

It seems the % of people who do things for the challenge has shrunk drastically over the years. Material rewards are 2nd tier.

@Destiny_Corrupted

where I can take a ticket and wait three and a half hours

I mean you are not wrong the reaction time of null bears is really something. I used to talk about how there was nothing happening in null when I roamed it, no fights just people running and hiding and some guy just told me to sit on my hands and wait and it worked wonders but it was a long ass wait.

[Aisha_Katalen]

That’s because CCP is unwilling, or scared, to advertise it as a competitive sandbox. If EVE ads would effectively be “come try EVE if you think you’re tough enough” you’d attract more challenge focussed players. Instead it’s “look at these spreadsheets” and “yay mining” right in the starter tutorial.

[ResonanceOfWar]

They should have used that meme Eve learning curve as advertising long ago. Would get the dark souls peeps twitching at least.

Obviously its been dumbed down a lot since then. I would say compared to 2009 sig tanking is maybe 1/3rd as good as it was, drones/rapid’s are ez mode now. Not to mention that 90% of the population uses drones so they don’t have to think.