This got brought up in the original Marauder rebalance thread (all 120 pages of it…) and the response was basically “there’s nothing interesting there, you’ve already got the Dominix and the Rattlesnake filling that niche” which is pretty correct. There’s nothing interesting or novel in a super-tanked drone Marauder. Drone boats already tank amazingly and tend to have little to no cap issues.
IMO there’s no need for a fifth Marauder hull since drone boats already have fantastic representation among mission ships and they don’t need any of the things a Marauder offers, namely damage projection, tracking, and tank.
I think that you incorrect. The Marauder class and it’s bastion ability is most useful in certain situations, otherwise it is just release the drones and hope they target the ones you want. Add the 48 km tractor beam and a large cargoBay and you have a much better ship. While the Domi is OK, it lacks the ecm immunity a Marauder has, the Bastion bonuses to damage resistance, and the 48 km tractor beam. The Rattlesnake is a good ship, but has a tiny cargo hold and the same problems the Domi has.
The bottom line is that all other weapon systems have a specific Marauder that bonuses their weapon class while offering all the other benefits of the Marauder class, why not offer the same chance to the last remaining orphaned weapon system? I know better than to ask for fairness in EVE,ditto for sympathy/empathy from most players. How about just plain logic instead?
Dont mind this one bit if you give a ship same amount of missile and guns with same bonus minmatar weapons will always be inferior to the point of no living soul will use it as such.Perfect example is Typhoon fleet issue.
If ship have gun and missile hardpoint it is common eve knowledge you can populate them.
Arguing that marauders are not fleet ships to prove what exactly? not all ships are the same or serve same role Vargur will still out perform in terms of raw HP or EHP all tier 1 minmatar BS and even Tempest fleet issue cant touch it in shield HP before bastion, fitted with bastion it will destroy it in terms of tank.
Does it means all tier one minmatar BS are bad for fleet…no
Does it means Vargur is better fleet ship than Tempest Fleet …no
Will Vargur out tank them all to the point of not even being funny…yes
Is there a reason why this ship can fit what ever and rest of them dont…no there isnt…not one…little…bit.
Only reason to make ships in my idea fitting bound…is for the sake of making them fitting bound…that is only reason,not interested thank you.
You need to train 2nd weapon system nothing weird nor massively challenging in that,it is light training the more you want from ship more training is needed nothing surprising nor does it require massive cross training.
That’s not always true and @CCP_Fozzie mentioned in the T3 Focus Group (iirc) that people should forget this urban legend of only using 1 type of weapons on a ship. I mean we all know mixed weapon systems mostly from ugly fits on Killmails, but that doesn’t mean it is generally the wrong approach. While you will always lose DPS/Application (esp. on bonused ships), a mixed weapon setup could be a good decision when it comes to save some tf/MW or when you think you are better off with doing a certain minimum amount of damage than taking the risk of doing none due to tracking/neuting or whatnot. Yeah, in most cases using one efficiently while choosing your targets and maneuvering wisely will yield you better results, but there are exceptions.
I think people generally don’t use mixed weapon setups because they are afraid of the criticism they will surely earn when someone looks at their killmail.
This has nothing to do with the number of hardpoints or the amount of guns. Having bonuses to two different hardpointed weapons on the same ship is just bad.
Yes… you’ve missed my point. There is no indication anywhere in here that you can put every type of turret and get bonuses to them on each of those hulls. You indicated this was the case in another post, which is what I was replying to.
Your comparisons here are missing the point. The Marauders as a whole have only slightly better base HP than a T1 hull and worse base HP than a Pirate or Navy hull. Also Bastion comes with significant downsides and doesn’t really factor into the comparison because those downsides are mostly self contained.
As for ‘fitting bound’ every ship is bound by their fitting space. CCP aren’t going to make a ship that has no problems fitting whatever ridiculous things it wants to fit because that’s not balanced and doesn’t create any interesting choices in the fitting decision space.
Don’t believe me? Go back and look at pretty much every previous balance thread, especially the T3Ds where CCP brought up tradeoffs and fitting space repeatedly.
Training Large Guns is as much cross training as training up another race’s Battleship. It makes far more sense to just put a ship in the same tree with the guns it uses and causes fewer problems.
There’s no good reason to put a ship under a faction where no other ship in that faction uses that weapon system.
Then they’re not pirate hulls.
Fozzie was either talking about mixing drones and other weapons or having unbonused secondary weapons on a hull. In either case that’s the exception that proves the rule. I already went over why drones work better than anything else as a secondary bonused system, and having unbonused secondary weapons can be useful but it doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of things. No one is going to waste fitting space on damage mods for them, and they’re still a rarity.
I have literally never seen a workable fit that mixes different types of guns and is better than a focused fit.
Yes, Bastion is useful, but it doesn’t actually add much to a drone boat.
Drones already keep attacking even after you lose target. They’re not affected by EWar targeted at your ship, they already have fantastic range for their damage, and there are already ships with bonuses to both control range and tracking. If you set your Drones to aggressive you can keep dealing damage even while jammed or completely sensor dampened.
Plus because a drone focused Domi has amazing fitting space and great capacitor usage it already tanks almost as well as a Marauder to the point that there are very few things where the Marauder has a clear edge over the Domi in terms of tank.
Basically if you take the Dominix as a Template and add T2 resists and a Bastion Module you end up with something absurdly OP. If you nerf that until it’s reasonable you end up with something that isn’t too far from either the Rattlesnake or the Dominix to the point that there’s little point in the ship existing at all. The Rattlesnake will always have an advantage in DPS over a Marauder, and the Dominix will always have the advantage in cost to performance.
By plain logic there’s no need for this hypothetical hull to exist. There’s already two hulls that are close enough to a Marauder in performance, both are cheaper, and CCP aren’t in the habit of adding hulls just for the sake of adding them. After all new hulls are expensive in terms of dev time and art pipeline.
Damage isn’t the only (or necessarily primary) consideration when using mixed weapons. When using missiles you have to contend with the delayed application of damage which can be mitigated using another weapon type in a secondary high slot. Drawing aggro or starting engagement timers are valid reasons for using using a secondary weapon type.
It depends on the ship and slot layout, as this can also be done with target painters or ewar for the same effect. Provided you have a free mid slot. Many fits don’t.
Sorry if this is off-topic but it is a valid point in the discussion.
None of typhoon hulls are bad, faction one is under used in gun config due to poor gun bonus.
again if ship have turret and missile harpoints it can populate those slots with missile and turrets in my first post amount of each is presented per ship nowhere did i said all ships have all gun and missile bonuses. they have certain bonuses to weapon systems ability to fit them all come from hardpoints.
CCP already did
This is obvious i dont ask anything unreal here and i pointed out ships that ARE in game that dont have fitting restraints plenty for everything one example Marauders that are far more power creep than what i propose here.
Further more both Abaddon and Maelstrom have exact PWG that means they are ~ in sync for Laser / Cannons usage on each hull and Maelstrom even have same CPU as typhoons that are missile boats meaning ZERO adjustment needed as IS to make this ship what i proposed amount of guns fitted will eat up PWG.if there is a scare that Abaddon will be op as missile boat due to excess PWG to fit mega tank on a whooping 4 med slots it have add % PWG usage increase for missile launchers like there is % PWG reduction for missile launchers.
I’l try this last time ship abundant in fitting space are already in game with far more OP factor than what is discussed here without anyone pointing finger and saying OMG eve is going to DIE due to imbalances emanating from those ships.
you are comparing biggest cancer in eve recent history to ships that are not and cannot be one…ever…you can do better than that.
Amarr and Minmatar ships use missiles do they not?
It is up to you not universe to choose will you train your self up or not to diverse weapon systems no one is “holding gun to your head” to do anything.
And thats ok they are retrofitted empire hulls by pirates…first post.
No the Fleet Issue really is bad. No matter how you fit it it’s got one mostly wasted bonus. The 7.5% rate of fire bonus is a great bonus, it’s 2.5% per level better than the one on the Fleet Tempest. The difference is that the Fleet Tempest has a damage bonus as well, though even if it just had a tracking or falloff bonus it’d still be a better projectile boat than the Fleet Typhoon.
Seriously, back when the regular Typhoon had split bonuses it was one of the least used and most complained about ships in Eve.
Then what you said here doesn’t make much sense:
Yes, you “can fit them” but you never would. There are basically no fits these days where it’s a smart move to forgo a bonus to fit a different weapons system. The days of the Arty Rokh are long dead because the days when an entire set of weapons were trash-tier is long dead.
Saying “you can fit _____” implies that it’s a good idea. You can already fit any gun you want on most ships. No one does because it’s a really stupid waste of a ship.
They did not. The ships that you’ve pointed out either don’t have the kind of loose fittings you’re implying they do or they have downsides to make up for the poor fittings, like the lower base HP on the Marauders which significantly mitigates the amount of buffer they can pull out of that extra fitting space.
Based on your designs here you basically want a ship with tons of fitting space but none of the accompanying downsides.
Your apparent belief that Marauders are in any way “powercreep” is ridiculous and not supported by any sort of evidence. They’re niche ships that have done basically nothing to move the meta in any significant way outside of PvE, and even the changes there were pretty sedate. Power Creep implies that something is more powerful than what already existed and has had some kind of impact on the meta as a result. The Marauders weren’t, aren’t, and didn’t.
Literally everything you’re saying here is wrong or misleading. Yes, the Abaddon and the Maelstrom have the same base PG, but they have different CPU amounts and any experience at all fitting the Abaddon shows that it’s CPU limited where as the Maelstrom actually tends to run into Powergrid because it has more CPU and is fitting lower CPU-use guns, but higher PG use ones.
The Typhoon has the same CPU as the Maelstrom but drastically lower PG because it’s a missile boat and doesn’t need it. Also it’s only fitting six launchers or turrets compared to the Maelstrom’s 8 turrets.
The idea that you can just rip stats off of existing ships and it’ll be fine is ridiculous, especially when you’re taking those ships and fitting completely different weapons systems on them.
I’m not just comparing to the T3Ds, that’s just an example where it’s drop dead easy to find the discussion I’m talking about. This same sort of discussion of fitting space and tradeoffs has come up in every balance thread for the last four years. If you don’t know what I’m talking about then you should go back and do some reading.
Yes, but you’ve given those ships bonuses to Projectiles and Energy Turrets respectively as well, and unless I’ve misread something somewhere the Abaddon Hull with the Projectile bonus goes to the Amarr ship skill. That’s out of line with the rest of Eve and puts a ship you need to train an entire other tree of skills to use under an Amarr ship skill. There’s no reason for that, it makes more sense and causes fewer problems to just put it under the Minmatar ship skill.
Yes, where you call them Pirate ships and the title calls them “(Faction/Pirate)” which implies Pirate Battleship, which these things are not in any sort of functional way.
It really isnt great by any metric ship you compare it with have more dps and more alpha the only redeeming point of artillery weapon only thing achieved with rof bonus is you actually consume more ammo than you can fit in a ship providing less overall dps and no alpha compared to Tempest Fleet or maelstrom.
7.5% missile rof on a 6 hardpoints provide sick dps boost 7.5% ac ship is mediocre in that same scenario…correction it is the worst thing you can do to a ship.
Singular DMG / ROF on a 6 gun platform doesn’t work especially ROF bonus it turns ship into ammo guzzler for 0 benefits. that is why i stated it is a poor weapon bonus on one side you have high projection high damage missiles and on minmatar side of things you have worst option minmatar can offer.
In any case i am for idea of it loosing gun bonus completely i even opened thread about it some time back.
You can just few days ago i was looking at KM of fleet of abaddons 1400mm fitted wreck strat cruiser fleet if i recall right, there are niche cases that works but i am not advertising that in this idea ships are versatile due to usage of their weapon system as well as additional one, you were stuck repeating that and thinking whatever you did i never mention them having all bonuses.
Lower base HP on them is there so when you activate bastion it doesn’t obtain hp of a planet thats it.it have nothing to do with fitting space.which btw marauders have plenty of.
False fitting full rack on them already strain their exact same power grid i dont ask for more.
False firstly maelstrom is one that fits less pwg and less cpu ones please be on point with your arguments i dont want to waste my time for this.
Second weapons are swapping hulls meaning dynamic changes Abbi is getting lower cpu pg bound weapons it will free up CPU shield orientation will introduce another set of variables to fitting space as well.
False
a typhoon is both gun and missile ship
b even while fitting 6 guns it need not one but two PG rigs just to fit guns alone and nothing else same guns that have nothing to offer btw.
False i never stated ship stats are to be set in stone as only way this idea is to move forward,what i did said is that ships shouldn’t be fitting bound like few example in game.
These ships got nothing but nerfs since launch it is not hard to see reasoning for containing them one way or another it is completely another to demand fitting restraints on a ships that are not even remotely an issue.In a danger of repeating my self i dont ask what is not there already and i even offered solution to the excess pwg in missile variants.
You are really stuck on this arent you
Use missiles…get it?
And when you skill your self up try all that ship can offer…it might be fun?..i must say i wouldnt bet on you for that one.
I call them retrofitted because it fits the idea narrative you can call them non pirate retrofitted by pirate ships if itl make you feet better?..i dont know something.
Hey great idea it follows a path of straight upgrade(as in republic fleet) rather than versatility path i am trying to do.
These ships blueprints are stolen / otherwise obtained and retrofired by pirate groups they care about weapon versatility and affordability of hulls and they are as much patriotic about gun type as they are nice to capture you and sell you back to amarrs as slave.
Pirate don’t care about weapon versatility. They develop for their choosen weapon system. Guristas go drones + missiles, serpentis go hybrid, angel go projectile, sansha go for laser as does the blood raiders. Why would they suddenly decide to build different battleship when they already have a better in the form of their current BS hulls?
“We have top of the line ship in that category so we will now burn ressources to design an abomination of confusing design goal in case we need a cheaper BS.”
Is that really your justification for low grade pirate BS?
o7 much simpler than that it is to expand pirate offering and introduce tier 3 based hull design with versatility as theme that dont really kills off tier 3 class and dont shoot straight for bestest pirate ships ever.
I think there is room there for this ships not navy maelstroms rokhs hyperions (because i think that isnt needed) but different take on them.
Pirates occurred to me as possibility thats is all.
This is not uncommon in other games / movies where space pirates utilize all they can moding ad hoc name it,it is often true bunch of ppl with guns is better to have than one guy with gold plated ak 47 is.
as long as it dont step on a top pirate offers i am blind to the issue.
If I’m not mistaken it was a discussion about fitting space on of the T3Cs. There was the suggestion to mix Medium and Small guns or something like that. Might have been blasters.
The entire T3C rebalancing showed again what a huge effort any T3 approach would be. A more versatile type of BS might be interesting for small/solo content, but it might just totally break large fleet engagements.
The only thing I could see working would be a model similar to T3Ds in which you can switch between modes, but I’d be curious how to do this on BS sized hulls without making them completely OP.
Maybe this would have potential to be a topic for Battlecruisers, though. They’d need tight enough fitting space and base boni to have them sub-par in everything compared to regular BCs and then give them 2-3 modes in which they can push a few stats above average. (And probably not allow them change modes every 10s like on a T3D, but rather 30s).
