Trivialising the importance of one’s formal allegiances, given your traditionalism it seems you’re more lacking in sincerity than grace.
Personal insults, now?
What’s your problem, exactly, Joringer?
Who in the 9 circles of Hell are you anyway, Teolisi Joringer ?
Whether you take it as an insult is completely up to you. Your intervention wasn’t graceless, I simply don’t believe it was sincere. Someone with such a highly developed sense of what is andesh could not possibly think that a person is wholly divisible from the loyalties they hold, nor fail to understand that those loyalties say a great deal about the person.
Trust me, I do have opinions on that. I have opinions on a lot of things related to this mess.
But of Jesoph Swolin, my young brother from the North, I am nothing but proud, and my primary concern right now is to support him in his fight.
Me and my sister against the cousin, me and my cousin against the rival, me and my rival against the outsider, and me and the outsider against the Enemy. That is andesh.
I dare say that Elsebeth has much a deeper understanding of the loyalties in question.
Whatever your young brother’s merits, and I see no reason to doubt your claims; by publicly making such a patriotic proclamation he contributes to the fiction of an Ushra’Khan that doesn’t exist. Their organisation and its offshoots have been influential; with respect to how that influence has manifested, I think it would be expected that anyone in my situation would have a problem with even tacit humanisation of their present or erasure if their past.
If an outfit agitate for a war most doubt can be won, make sweeping deals to cede Republic systems, and make fetishistic GalNet broadcasts using the human detritus of their massacres, I’m not sure I need to understand the loyalty deeply as you say Elsebeth does. It is enough for me to understand that to a greater or lesser extent that it is an acceptance or approval of those acts.
As some one who supports the reclamation, Im pretty sure that understanding may be beyond you.
Teolisi Joringer accused me of not understanding her religion/culture in a different thread and yet here she comes, a slaver, butting into Matari matters that don’t concern her and daring to say that she understands the concepts of Matari andesh better than Elsebeth.
Hubris and hypocrisy thy name is Amarr.
On the other hand she is at least the model of efficiency; both ignorance and arrogance all bundled up in one package.
I have no desire to rehash that thread here, but I will try to answer your other points; Matari matters do concern me, I’ve been a citizen half my life and continue to reside in Pator. I will concede that I did remark upon Elsebeth’s sense of what is andesh, though I fail utterly to see how that is any claim of superior knowledge on my part.
Am I hubristic and hypocritical? Sadly, yes to the former, for which I pray God grant me His forbearance… the latter, I hope no more than anyone else.
In the spirit of the arrogance you accuse me of, have you considered reading the points you seek to refute? It would cut on the amount of strikingly incorrect hyperbole you need to vent.
He made a appeal to us to fight against triglavians.
You criticize him because of his association to Ushra’Khan.
Yet you are seemingly ignorant of his merits with and association to Edencom Defence Initiative, which very relevant to the subject here.
You did not wish to be seen only as one of the Faith but also as a member of your tribe and a patriot, yourself.
Again, I say, have some grace.
In the interest of avoiding this statement entering the subtext of anything else I say, a member of Ushra’Khan making rapturous proclamations about the military successes of a man who would be a reasonable contender for their harshest critic is almost too absurd for satire.
As you said earlier, it is andesh that you support Jesoph; and obviously it is possible to hold more than one loyalty, I would go so far as to say that the allegiance you show to the world is not always the one that speaks most truthfully of you, but there is no denying that it speaks most loudly.
Jesoph Swolin may be a good man, and however graceless you think it is to say it, a good man who is a member of a violent, reactionary and bigoted terrorist organisation is still a member of that organisation and whatever else he says or does is coloured by their values.
While true, I find it extremely ironic that one of the Faith would say this.
Content as I would be to debate that point, I confess uncertainty as to what point you are choosing to make; a critique of the faith itself, or do we in your experience resent judgement by it?
A sound recording of a long drawn-out sigh plays
Brothers, sisters, cousins. Many have gone on at length here, calling out the shortcomings of one another, perceived or actual. Elsewhere, I too have indulged in such. But this is NOT the place nor the time.
Your stance is unfortunate. But it will not stop EDI from doing what is right. At the end of the day, if you choose to engage us, at that moment you serve the Triglavian Collective.
I am born of the Tribes as well. I have seen with my own eyes the results of Amarr slavery. I have also seen Amarr people fight for the sake of all, including our own people. I would never tell you that all Amarrians are like this, but I personally know several.
The truth of the matter is, there ARE no “neutrals.”
My apologies with regards to the delayed reply. I was rather preoccupied with the defense of Frerstorn.
I am indeed a member of Ushra’Khan, but all social units, one’s nation, one’s tribe, one’s clan and one’s family, as well as the allegiances we forge, start with the individual. Accordingly I would like to be treated as one, rather than a drone. I understand that concept might be foreign to one who adheres to a religion imported by those who enslaved our ancestors. With regards to both Ushra’Khan and Edencom, I do what I think is right.
I believe that you are confusing the dislike that Ushra’Khan and myself had for Karin Midular’s regime with a dislike for the Minmatar Republic. The actions of Ushra’Khan, Muritor’s Defiants, the Bloody Hands of Matar and the inhabitants of Skarkon were symptoms of how bad things had gotten under Karin Midular’s administration. I recognize that she was a Ray of Matar and a brilliant scientist, but if someone is elected to lead our Republic, and her decisions cause, in succession, Republic Fleet officers and crews to desert their posts, our people to riot and resort to violence, and our planets to pledge allegiance to the Angel Cartel rather than be subject to her authority, perhaps said leader should have pursued the Res Publica. This, however, is now in the past. The Republic has been reshaped from a lazy copy of the Gallentean model to something which matches our culture. I see no reason why I, nor Ushra’Khan, should bear any ill will towards the Elders, who speak for the tribes, nor Sanmatar Maleatu Shakor, who speaks for the Elders.
Ergo, there were no responsible choices to undermine during that administration, and if you believe that peace with those who would send their ships and soldiers against us to do our people harm and enslave them is an option, I invite you, sister, to journey to Floseswin IV and debate the matter with your kinsmen who live there. I would be interested to see whether your faith in a foreign god remains intact after witnessing the suffering inflicted in his name. In contrast to you, I was there, alongside the rest of Ushra’Khan, for many bloody months, protecting our people from those you aspire to resemble.
And when you are done inspecting the broken remains of our worlds, perhaps you will stop praying long enough to watch the news in order to learn what happened in Raravoss, Vale, and half a dozen Caldari systems.
Perhaps, after having done both of those things, you will begin to understand why I say what I say, and why I do what I do. I fight to protect our people, and encourage all true Matari to do the same, because the stakes are dire. That and nothing more is what I sought to bring to people’s attention. If that is difficult for you to understand, perhaps you are not a part of the target audience I was addressing.
Neither the apology, nor signalling the virtue of what you were otherwise occupied in doing are necessary.
You are a member of Ushra’Khan; while a paramilitary is a social unit, it is a fundamentally different one than a nation, tribe, clan, or family. Your group claim to be “the wrath of the Minmatar people”, even if you believe your own actions to be meritorious– you, as everyone else who contributes to their capacity to commit atrocities bear responsibility for them.
I could not disagree with you more about the wisdom of Karin Midular’s government, I encourage you to seek out the substance of a speech that Kanth Filmir made at a YC110 fleet dinner in Amamake, “The greatest achievement of Karin Midular is that she came to power five years ago and there was a Minmatar Republic, and she was in office for five years and there is still a Minmatar Republic.” left a particular impression upon me; I have long considered Kanth Filmir to be one of the finest representatives of our military, his recent conduct has only solidified the esteem in which I hold him.
Contrary to your insistence that there were no responsible choices; I believe that the only responsible choice is the pursuit of a peaceful resolution to our disputes with the Amarr, I believe that whatever the Sanmatar’s supporters have asserted about Karin Midular’s government, they have assiduously avoided full scale conflict with the Empire, and I believe these things are because the military situation now remains broadly as Kanth Filmir saw it twelve years ago. If we give the Amarr provocation to full scale war, we will be crushed.
You are correct of course that I have not been to Floseswin IV since this dispute began, but like most places so near the border the Faith is more prevalent than in the cities of the Republic heartlands, having had cause to visit in the past I know many of the planet’s settlements and my uncertainty about the fate of my friends there saddens me.
The crux of my irritation is that you seek credit for mitigating a problem you contributed to in the first place, the invasion of Floseswin happened against a backdrop of Arrach Sarum taking closer control of the Imperial Crusade, he did this in response to corrupt deals whereby Ushra’Khan and several Imperial Crusade aligned alliances exchanged solar systems in the interest of economic manipulation, though the specific response was not obvious, that this would prompt an escalation was– Ushra’Khan personally insulted one of the most powerful and least forgiving men in the cluster.
To understand why you say what you say or do what you do would require I understand whether your omissions are cynical or ignorant. Whatever your reasons, it’s a validation of the same criticisms that have been levelled at U’K for more than a decade; I admire the inclination to protect the Republic, but our military does not fire on Harkon Thorson as a matter of course without reason, your outfit has done more damage to the Republic and brought us closer to a war of annihilation than the most zealous reclaimers could ever hope to.
However indirectly you say that people who disagree with you are not true Matari it hearkens to the ideology underpinning the purge, and says more of you than it does of any other.
I did not say that any who disagree with me are not true Matari. I have stated, however that all true Matari ought to be looking towards the defense of our worlds at a time when the cluster’s systems are being invaded from abyssal space, seemingly at random. Words that I have stood by in both Matari and Gallente systems. Words which you decided to draw into question because I joined Ushra’Khan. So I will explain the situation as it is.
As you have kindly pointed out, efforts to co-exist in that region of space failed. Any agreements that existed between capsuleer entities were torn asunder the moment the Amarrians began dragging people out of their homes and shipping them off. If it were up to me, such agreements would never have existed. However, I was not a part of Ushra’Khan when any of the events you mentioned occurred.
I joined them because the moment the 24th Imperial Crusade launched that reclamation effort, I wanted to stop them. From my perspective, Ushra’Khan was putting in the work. I hold no desire to inflict harm on innocent people, nor do I desire a full-scale war. However, if there are those who would trespass on our planets, I have no issue with resolving the matter by force of arms.
Coincidentally, since you brought up an old speech which Filmir, according to the article, made without preparation, let me assure you that after over half a year of flying sorties to cover his forces, Filmir had very different things to say about us:
I think the Hetman General is perfectly capable of recognizing who had his back when the Amarr decided that peace was no longer in their best interests. I flew sorties in the Floseswin system for one-hundred-and-eleven days and lost a lot of friends, Capsuleers and Baseliners alike, to buy Filmir the time he needed to liberate Floseswin IV, and if he called once again I would answer once more.
Having humoured your inquiries, if you wish to continue this discussion, I am more than willing to do so elsewhere, rather than continuing what has essentially become an argument over different viewpoints in a conversation that was meant to bring people together, which saddens me greatly.
I stalk your danger!