None of which means I wouldn’t be more than happy to trade with them if the opportunity arose. Trade is almost always the best way to learn about other cultures, and I’d rather trade with the Drifters than shoot them.
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One of the key factors Caldari Prime. CEP and the Federation govenrment both see this situation as being resolved , as of the last treaty signed by them.
I believe dialogue and the political process is the only way the war will come to an end. Animosity between the two governments is always high . Which makes the chance of ever starting a dialogue extremely challenging , with the most likely conclusion that the talks would end up breaking down.
With the most recent example the shooting down of Gallente freightors and the closing down of the border.
War zone is not the most prosperous parts of the State or Federation , both nations seem to be content to continue the fight by supporting their militias in the area.
This war , looks like it will last longer than the first Caldari , Gallente war , unless a yet unkown external force threatens both nations , which will bring them to the table to settle their differences.
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I highly doubt either governing body sees the matter as ‘resolved’, but only ‘we’ve got something in place for now and we’ll figure out something more permanent when we can’.
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And now that the Republic has moved back to a traditional form of government that allows them to maintain their own culture and control their own state, I’m a lot less nervous about the future of the Cluster.
It was when there seemed to be a solid chance of the Federation suborning the Matari into their organisation that I was worried. The existence of an independent Matari Republic/Tribal Nation is actually a benefit to peace.
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You know, I hear this a bunch from people living in Anoikis, but let’s consider what you’re saying for a moment:
“Hey, Drifters, I know I’ve snuck into your home through a busted window and I’m robbing you, but if you’d stop trying to stop me, I’d love to sell you your stuff back.”
Would you trade with the thief who said that to you? Or would you just try harder to kick him out of your home?
Maybe get out of their home and stop robbing them would be a better first step?
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I completely agree, Pieter. As I’ve said: I think we’d be better served by a three-way balance of power than a polarized two-way one. Tripods are stable. Balancing on two legs takes a lot more work.
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It should, on balance, discourage active conflict whilst encouraging a slow march to take the whole planet politically. Thus far the Senate seems happy to reward slow diplomacy and taking economic responsibility with ceding increasing amounts of Caldari Prime territory.
This makes me happy - as little as I enjoy having to thank Ishukone for it.
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I’d point out to them that I’m living peacefully and tepurposing stuff I buy. If they wished to trade with me I’d be delighted to do so. I’m simply a business man and scientist when it comes down to it.
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What exactly is it you do in Anoikis? Does it involve their ore deposits? Their planetary minerals? Their gas clouds?
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I utilize things I find around the place and that others sell to me. How do you know that the Drifters own those observatories they were tearing apart? Until they tell me otherwise I’ll keep using other peoples salvage to make things, if thwy wish to discuss then I’m all ears.
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The observatories are Jovian, the Drifters are, so far as we’ve been able to ascertain, the only surviving Jove. The only other group with a credible claim would be the SoCT. The observatories are in k-space, though.
So you ‘utilize things [you] find around’ Anoikis? Like the salvage of sleeper drones others have destroyed? And you’re potentially offering to sell the Drifters their own stuff that you stole and/or others blew up? Which is all still in their space?
Yeah, I can’t imagine why they might not want to welcome to you remain in their home and sell them the broken pieces of their own belongings. I mean, you’d do that for someone squatting in your ship, busting up the place and offering to sell your maintenance crews bits of wiring and deck panels, right?
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Actually I was thinking more along the lines of offering them things they need in return for things I would like. Basic trade. Since the Drifters have never yet shown up in the space I live in I’ll just keep populating the planets and producing stuff as always. If they ever decide to talk to us then fine, if not then I’m fine with leaving them be if they leave me be.
I firmly believe in live and let (sort of) live as far as the Drifters are concerned.
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There is an old saying among Caldari:
Just because you are not interested in Grand Strategy does not mean Grand Strategy is not interested in you.
We all have to play a part in the Great Game, like it or not – carving out spheres of influence; determining ones own interest and pursuing the objectives through those means deemed necessary to accomplish them. It is true, the Caldari Megacorporations sought to create a separate powerbase economically, industrially, and socially away from the Gallente – this was part of the corporate Grand Strategy and the colonies factored into that. Because the Gallente did not play the game well when they tried to force democracy upon the Caldari using the same antiquated tactics from the wars of their World Democracy League. That out of the chaos and destruction of the revolutions they instigated would come only nations and societies compliant to their cultural narrative and ideological norms.
They failed to recognize that the central historical and cultural norms of the Caldari people were never centred around the requirements of personal freedoms and liberty from absolute monarchs like on Garoun. The historical and political creations of Caldari were always centred around the requirements of survival on hostile world with hostile neighbours – the authoritarian military state; the meritocratic civil bureaucracy; a strong Executive whether absolute Monarch or Warlord; these were all preferred because what was preferred was not democracy and liberalism but stability, order, and security in order to survive.
In overturning the old social orders the Gallente never asked: “Where would all those people of the old guard go?” They only realized the answer to a question they had never asked for five centuries, and the Tikiona States, the Oriyoni Collectives they thought had been broken had in fact been re-forged anew in the Megacorporations out of sight from their prying grasp with the solemn desire to never again permit the Caldari, the true Caldari who never forgot culture, history or tradition, to be broken or subjugated by another power.
That was the Grand Strategy of Caldari Megacorporations for centuries and remains more or less the same today. It is, however telling, in the reactions of the Gallente and the Federation in discovering what the Megacorporations had done what their Grand Strategy was. The notion of Caldari no longer being what they saw as a backwards and undeveloped people who would willingly submit themselves to their parochial colonialist attitudes was met instantly with alarm. The idea of Caldari being able to resist any attempts at a redux of “Cultural Deliverance” was such anathema that they were willing to use violence under any pretext to return Caldari to a subservient minority.
Has the Federation learned from the experience of war with the State? Of course it has, and its lessons are clearly evident with the Intaki and in the Syndicate. The Intaki Syndicate is deliberately kept weak by the Federation under threat of war if they even dare to colonize any world in the Syndicate leaving them in a station-bound diaspora. Any inkling of independence of the Intaki in the Syndicate will likely result in a Federal “Peacekeeping” operation against the “Criminals” of the Intaki Syndicate.
Because a free and independent Intaki Syndicate that is viable as its own interstellar polity is against the interests of Federal Grand Strategy in expanding its power and influence through the best of intentions of, “Making all of humanity free.”
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On a personal note though, while I might be able to elaborate on the causes or justifications for war between State and Federation, it won’t change my opinion of how much I would hate for a further escalation towards a total war. Although given how most capsuleers lionize and glamourize violence and conflict it’s not really a topic worthy of discussion given a set prone to fetishizing killing. It’s always an easy thing to advocate war when divorced from the majority of its actual consequences in any real or fundamental terms.
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Please reiterate your statement.
You theoretically can’t indoctrinate people to choose for themselves, since it is ability of human mind to make choices where they need - or not need it. I don’t know why you have even brought this form of statement into the light, since it looks somewhat alogical.
You can indoctrinate people into believing that democracy is good, you can indoctrinate them into believing that freedom is good…
But you can’t indoctrinate them into making choices. Smart people will do choices anyway, even when you don’t expect them to, and dumb people won’t see the choice even if it will be brought to them on the platter.
Well, Ms. Ambrye, this is definitely not what I have written or meant and I really not in the power to remedy that, as I can offer my opinions, but I can’t control what you hear. I will reiterate the statement though to make it more clear:
- Federation brainwash people indiscriminately.
- Federation brainwash people into believing that democracy is good.
- Federation brainwash people into believing that freedom is good.
The last one though need a bit more clarification, so I will extend that:
4. Federation make people obey and behave like grey crowd.
4a. Federation employ thought control, forcibly removing those who disagree with brainwashing (ref. Black Eagles)
4b. Federation enforces the unnatural and inhuman ideology of egalitarianism, treating everyone as equal, that sort of approach turn people from persons into herd of identical sheep.
4c. Federation denies access to knowledge and information that will let people choose their own ideology (for example, try logically proving in any school that democracy is wrong, that freedom brings suffering, or that Caldari wasn’t bad - and you clearly find yourself either fired or… look 4a, you will just disappear).
I definitely haven’t. My family was neither from the Federation, nor from the Empire, and I really can’t compare how it would look from inside. But I can and I do compare how does it look outside. I compare the indoctrination and brainwashing that leaks out from inside their borders.
With known Amarr trend to “Reclaim” the souls of other people, I don’t see them doing it agressively, neither with their propaganda, nor military action, and just keep their arms open for those, who will wish to know more about the God. I don’t see a lot of preaching media, of calling us “heathens”, demanding us to obey and so on. Their export of the Faith, Religion and God is quite subtle.
On the other hand we have the Federation. Almost in every media, including recreational holoreels, news, even good advertisement, you can easily spot their brainwashing and indoctrination. Everywhere they show how everyone must turn into freedom, how everyome should embrace democracy. Can you imagine, some of them call even us slavers, and that with slavery illegal here! You don’t want their democracy? They will call you a tyrant! They praise freedom fighters! Especially after they commit some sort of terrorist act against “tyrants”, disregarding how many civilians will die in that. On the other hand they will call you “terrorist” if you protect your home against their invasion.
And you know what? I am sick of it, and that’s why I talk so much about that Federation and their methods.
D. Kim, Strike Commander,
State Protectorate, CMC,
Caldari State
Perhaps the effect of Gallente culture is much more profound than I had argued prior – perhaps it is as easily witnessed as the morning sun. However, even though their pride is distinctly visible in their culture, it isn’t grounds to generalize the entire scope of the Federation as purposefully imposing that culture on others by displaying it. It is well possible to find pride in something, display it, and not directly be forcing it on the viewer. That depends entirely on the recipient’s receptiveness to the ideal, and largely not the responsibility of the Federation.
Certainly, though, the Federation is clearly the greater evil with the way they show the love of their values in all aspects of their lives and offer that entitlement to others. Speaking to me, an Intaki, about the impact of cultural imperialism, is novel. To bring the Republic into it is even more amusing, as though they’ve suffered some great plight at the hands of this ‘cultural indoctrination’ phenomena. No, I’d argue that the Republic being “rolled up with it” is a consequence of the Republic citizen’s susceptibility to finding a better life in whatever the Federation provides. Since they are clearly victims of an entropic identity and desire to adopt another culture’s ways, the Republic must be fairly worse for the wear.
My scathing sarcasm aside, if the Republic are losing numbers to the Federation, perhaps it is not because of some great propaganda machine, but because the grass really is greener. The Federation is by no means perfect and I personally abhor it as an entity, but in the end it was always a better place for the Intaki, if the Intaki are to have a wing to support it. Claiming cultural indoctrination in spite of acknowledging that Gallente pride is part of their culture is akin to claiming that the Gods are oppressive because they are powerful, twisting a component of their nature in a negative light solely because of a personal bias as opposed to any real harm done.
No, the Federation has their faults, and it certainly isn’t their love of Freedom. Their faults lie in the use of Freedom and Liberty as a justification for their actions, but confusing the aspect for the crime is a dangerous road.
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Agreed through and through, Madam Gesakaarin. Though, as I believe I previously stated, it is important to draw comparisons so that we may learn from these experiences. Total war between the State and the Federation would benefit no-one, and while they both have their faults they also both have their strengths.
Lo, I long for a day where the two could come together. The combined might of meritocratic service and civil and social freedoms would be difficult to fight, and harder still to best. I wished that the Drifters would have been the uniting cause with which they could rally, but it seems even certain oblivion wouldn’t allow the two to set aside centuries old hatred.
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What does the Federation offer that the Caldari State either does not already possess or wants?
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The Federation is, and always has been, an expansionist power. You’re Intaki. Can your people actually establish colonies on the worlds in their own systems, or will the Federation sweep in and begin a military action to purge those colonies? Military actions aren’t simply ‘cultural pride’, you know.
Nor is it simply ‘cultural pride’ that leads a people to pressure a weaker, less organized group of peoples, fresh from years of protracted fighting for their own identity and culture, to adopt the expansionists’ form of government. To push us to seek homogenity among the Tribes. Years of fighting to ensure the Brutor could be Brutor, the Krusual could be Krusual, to be ourselves and find our own voices… and they pressed for that to be smothered beneath the cacophonic white noise of ‘Parliamentary Government’.
A god that is powerful enough to oppress, and makes no efforts to restrain his use of that power… will be oppressive. It may not be malicious. It may only be thoughtless, negligent, and apathetic. That doesn’t make it less oppressive. The Federation can be as proud as they like of the Rule of Mob, that doesn’t mean they have to keep trying to export their corrupt and chaotic bickering beyond their borders.
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A fair question. My limited experiences with the Caldari give me an impression that it is certainly a more… stringent environment. There seems to be little room for dissenting views. I’ve only recently found a home in Caldari space and found some fruitful work with Zainou, but in that time I’ve noticed a fair bit of xenophobia - perhaps unfounded, or based in historical grievances before our time. In itself, is easily ignored, but it is clear that many of the Caldari (particularly Civire, but this is more an anecdotal observation than a statistical analysis) as a whole are loathe to hear a differing viewpoint. I myself would like to see more of a willingness to embrace critical thought, even if it does mean dissent among the ranks.
To elaborate, I mean more of an individual nature. It is clear that there is some disconnect in the ideals and philosophies of the corporations, but it often comes off as binary party politics. Liberals versus Provists, so to speak. From what I have seen, Caldari tend to remove a lot of the gray area from socio-economic issues…
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