Yes, I am Intaki, but I am not Syndicate. The systems of Intaki, Agoze, Frarie, Ostingele… Even the Aliastra corporation can trace its origins to the Intaki people. Strangely, there has been no unwarranted military intervention in these areas. Yes, Federation Customs overstepped their bounds in the handling of Rise as I had previously mentioned, but this was a concerted effort from a founded, government entity. This was not the work of marketers, entertainers, and manufacturers peddling their products with some subliminal message of “come to the Federation where you can abandon your cultural identity and adopt ours”. Such a thing is absurd to even consider.
And where you would argue that the Federation pushed the Tribes to abandon their identity for the namesake of coalition of sovereigns, I would argue that without that the Republic very well could have fallen prey to their enemies. The Tribes have their own identities and cultural traditions, of course, but without some uniting element they stand to face much larger, more technologically advanced powers. United, the Tribes are stronger, and it goes without saying that they have achieved a certain greatness in that bond. EDIT: Moreover, a Parliamentary Government is much easier to deal with on the global political scale. The same cannot be said for multiple Tribal bands with significantly different views. Much in the same way The Syndicate is composed of individual robber-barons, they are still a single entity in the worldview.
This isn’t to defend the Federation - quite the contrary. I agree that the Federation oversteps its bounds, but again, that is on a militaristic/political front. The Federation is too fragmented in ideology to be able to muster some concerted effort to coalesce the world to democracy. To believe the billions if not trillions of people somehow adopt a hive-mind mentality in some effort to afflict foreign nations with the right to vote is just unfathomable. If you were to say that the FIO had planted agents to drive the political affairs in that direction, I could buy that, but to say the whole of the Federation is the driving force behind this is absurd.
Speaking as a poster-boy for the Civire, I can add some context to your remarks. I’m absolutely fine with hearing about differing viewpoints, but that tolerance ends roughly where I am expected to overturn the way things are done based off of them. Critical thought is highly valued in the State - no less than it is in the Federation. What is more constrained are the avenues through which that thought can be expressed.
We come from a culture that has had a lot of thought about self-expression and maintaining our cultural identity - and obviously some of that comes from our experience with the Federation, but equally certainly that isn’t where it started. We literally fought a war that could easily have led to mutual extinction in our Iron Age until we had the epiphany of national identity and the preservation of both Civire and Deteis culture as separate but equal within the context of what it means to be Caldari. Later on we have added Achura as the third leg in our cultural tripod and, if Achuran culture hasn’t been propagated to the same extent within Caldari Society, I remain convinced that it is only a matter of time.
Caldari society is actually remarkably open to the adoption of new ideas - a culture so much so, in fact, that it lacks a strong central government and is happy to operate as a coalition of Mega Corporations. We don’t have binary party politics, my friend, we have Octal Party Politics - and that’s as diverse as the Tribes of the Republic and as diverse as the Houses of the Imperium.
What we have an absolute phobia of is infighting. This is what I mean when I say that critical thought is a vital part of the Caldari mindset, but the ways in which new thought can be communicated and implemented are more constrained than you’re used to. In Caldari society unity is absolutely key. We are authoritarian because we despise disorder and anarchy. We are collectivist because a divided community simply cannot survive through the experiences that we’ve had.
You’re unlikely to ever change those facets of our nature. They are carved into the very bedrock of what it means to be Civire and, I dare say, Caldari (although I won’t speak for my Deteis or Achuran cousins).
The same thing comes with grey areas. Decisions have to be made and then acted upon. Do we make camp or begin a trek to a new home? Do we embrace peace and trade or do we go to war? Are you an ally or are you an enemy? Will we starve or thrive? Do we live or die? We live in a cluster that has presented us with stark choices.
We can talk about the good qualities of Civire, but I feel that this sounds like me puffing myself up, so instead I’ll discuss traits that Civire consider to be intolerable in a partner, in a friend or just in a colleague. Vaciliation. Indecision. Selfishness. Weakness.
They are killing traits and they kill both those who have them and those who depend on those who have them.
Well worded, Sir Tuulinen. I’ve nothing to add or contest, but I would like to add some clarity to my previous words. When I said binary politics, I only meant that it can often appear that the Caldari are either totally for or against a particular policy, without variation.
Thank you, you have definitely answered many of the questions I’ve left unasked for fear of offending others in my new… Placement… I refuse to prematurely call the State my home, as I feel I have much more to learn, but it is a welcome change to the constant turmoil that is Intaki. However much I miss her many moons.
You are absolutely not required to adopt the State as your home in order to win the respect of your peers, Nomistrav. People have used the word racist and xenophobic to describe the State for as long as it has existed but, in truth, many of us simply feel that being Caldari is the best thing for the Caldari. The proles have simplistic views of the cluster, but most Caldari that you could consider your peers are likely to feel that being Intaki is equally the best thing for the Intaki.
Our ways aren’t better than yours, per se, they are simply better for us.
We tend to get very suspicious when jaijii come to the State and declare that they wish to ‘become Caldari’ and then resist Caldari mindsets, traditions and customs. When they come amongst us and say that it is temporarily advantageous to them to live and work with us in order to learn skills, make relationships or for whatever reason, we will make sure that the bargain is as advantageous to our side as possible, but we would absolutely respect this as a motive. We would understand it. We would trust it.
Considering the enemy we would have fallen prey to is the one we were, and are still, fighting every day, I highly doubt having an easily-corrupted and ineffective government really helped in that regard. Nobody said anything about the Tribes not being united. We have a Tribal Council now, as we would have if we hadn’t been pressured into the idiocy of Parliamentary Democracy. The only thing that system got us was manipulated by the Federation and handcuffed to endless internal squabbling when the situation called for leadership.
Why would dissent be something the Caldari desire, and bring the State closer to the Federation? It would be a mistake to judge Caldari society by Gallente values and find it lacking in those values. There is less dissent in the State because people do not regard corporate governance to be perpetually regarded with suspicion, or the adversary to personal freedoms. In fact, trying to export dissent from the Federation into the State would be regarded as the very same kind of subversive tactics the Gallente used during the period of the Cultural Deliverance Society – fomenting political discord and revolution to bring down an established social order. Quite inimitable to any rapprochement between Caldari and Gallente, at least from a Caldari perspective.
I have already said that broadly Caldari culture prizes stability and security over almost all else. The bureaucracies within practically every Megacorporation are deliberately designed to deliver stability and security. The rules, procedures and protocols in place come from strong Legalist traditions – that it does not matter who you are, or what position you may hold all are equal to the Law with no one to be regarded as above the Law. The individual apparatchiks might come and go from within the apparatus, but the apparatus itself will keep on functioning.
Such a system is vital to the proper functioning of a meritocratic society: That all are to be held to the same laws; the same standards; and afforded the same opportunities so that the only discriminating factors between citizens and their place within society is their individual ability and what they can contribute to the Greater Good of society. It is a Totalitarian system of governance which has proven to be effective and robust – at least insofar as it has afforded the Caldari State with a population in most cases to be about 1/3 that of either the Federation, Empire, or Republic to be considered a near peer competitor to all of them.
I explain this because I think you are conflating a lack of critical thought with a lack of political activism within the State and the Megacorporations. Corporate governance is intended to be, as much as possible, ideologically neutral – that there should exist no need to politically agitate within an effective rules based system and that by removing political or ideological partisanship it eliminates the social discord and instability associated with say, democratic party politics.
There is in fact a wide scope of critical thought within the State but the preferred decision making processes are not driven by idealism or political ideology but by more technocratic processes of hard data and facts driven by the central questions of: What are the potential benefits of undertaking a potential decision? Does it contribute to the Greater Good? Backed up by research and given proper projections and costings irrespective of whether the policy under consideration is military, civil, social, or in the workplace.
This is why I asked you what the Federation has to offer the State if what you advocate is rapprochement between them. Because if all that is offered in answer to that is sentiment, emotive appeals, and empty platitudes then I sincerely think you will not go far in convincing many Caldari to consider it an option as far as decisions to undertake go.
It would be a bad idea from a Caldari perspective for the Federation to encourage dissent. And likely from a Federal perspective as well, unless they like the idea of a heavily armed neighbouring polity in societal chaos.
However, in any society there will be misfits. Perhaps the Federation might better serve as a place for Caldari misfits to go that doesn’t involve them becoming Guristas and causing problems for the society they came from? Or starving to death for that matter.
What the Federation gets from this is an influx of new blood and, perhaps, new ideas.
It’s an open secret that elements of Ishukone have colluded and perhaps still colludes with the Federation as regards its agencies and their running of prisons within Black Rise if that’s what you mean.
Those who fit, or can be made to fit, mostly stay; those who don’t, and can’t, are often encouraged to go. For those who go, the Federation’s a pretty common destination.
I’ll certainly try to reiterate my statement, Ms. Kim. You stated previously:
So here I think the claim is that the Armarrian’s are open about their slavery and indoctrination. In the following statements you talk about how the Federation practices “brainwashing” and won’t even admit it. I’m not disagreeing that the Federation practices propoganda and indoctrination, I just disagree on how secretive the Federation is being about it. Having grown up on Intaki V I have had the fortune (misfortune?) of watching many Gallente entertainment vids on the holoview. I have to say that I had found Federation propoganda anything but subtle. Personally, I woudn’t dignify it as brainwashing, it’s mostly crass advertisment and the assumption that they (the Federation) are right.
It was, admittidly, my perception of what you were saying. Which is why I asked for clarification as what I thought I heard you saying didn’t make much sense to me and it didn’t seem fair to assume that was actually what you meant.
Alright, so I agree with you here. Whether or not democracy and freedom are goods or ills is debatable, though I concede that those concepts may not be appropriate in all situations. Among the Intaki population most don’t fully accept the Gallentian version of democracy as promoted in the Federation. So I might be unusual as I don’t represent the average Intaki’s views on democracy, though my thoughts on democracy are certainly influenced by my upbringing.
Again, this is why I asked for clarification and I appreciate your taking the time to do so.
So, I’ve already said that I don’t think the Federation practices brainwashing, at least not in the strict sense of the definition. By that I don’t agree that the Federation, on the whole, makes their citizens do anything. I do agree that the Federation will do their best to convince their citizens that their goverment is acting in their best interest, and that this can and does take the form of propoganda, which is not very subtle and very “in your face.”
The misuse of the Federation’s secret service is a known and growing concern calling into question its continued existence.
Oh defintely, it’s considered unpatriotic to question the rightness of the Federation in such matters. Again, this is something my people know a bit about. Being disappeared by the secret service for being a dissenting citizen is not something I can comment on with any confidence and I can only bring up anecdotal evidence to the contrary. I’m sure that if disappearing were happening regularly then it would be caught by a statistical analysis of population trends, so one could start there.
So, if the Amarr set all their slaves free today then the former slaves will be compelled by the weight of the Amarrian arguments to full accept the Amarrian god tomorrow? Note, this is not what I’m saying you’re claiming, but I think it follows that if Amarrian slaves aren’t being held in subjugation via aggression, including possible socio-economic disadvantage, then the subjugation must be a willing acceptance of the role.
I agree, that’s probably an unfair accusation and possibly hyperbolic. The Federation isn’t a monolithic entity so some groups of people may have a different definition of what amounts to slavery than most within the Federation.
No, the Federation concept of democracy is not the end all and be all of what democracy is or even should be. Though to be fair, some governments that reject democracy, the Federation’s version or otherwise, are tyrants. I’m not saying that this is the case the Caldari, that they are necessarily tyannical, but some governments just are even if democracy isn’t your measuring stick.
Terrorism is a slippery and often much abused word. It’s easy enough for a nation to use terrorism to promote war against another nation if it can claim it was the victim of such atrocities. Considering the history of the Federation-Caldari war both sides had committed what amounts to terrorist acts against the other, though I don’t claim that this excuses the Federation.
Anyhow Ms. Kim, I thank you for your time. Hopefully I’ve represented your arguments and points fairly.
It’s quite typical and expected that the entity would be advertising their ideology and proving that it is better than the others.
Yes, the Federation assumes that they are right, and they advertise it. But even in the Federation it can be disputed - for example, Duvalier regime, which was an extreme bloom of typical gallente democratic fascism, is often considered wrong even in the Federation. What I truly can’t accept is Federal advertisement of concepts like freedom, democracy and similar like that.
Federals don’t even try to prove or show why and how these ideals should be considered good. They simply beat that into heads of those, who watch Federal media, they always represent them as “good” ideals in stiff axiomatic way, not accepting even logical reasoning why they can’t be good.
And that is the brainwashing, when you are incdoctrinated in a logically inconsistent ideal in a dumbifying axiomatic way.
In comparison with Amarr Empire their indoctrination in religion is not logically inconsistant, it is a world view that can’t be proven right or wrong. Imperial theologists build proofs of God’s existence. Have you seen any Federal theoretician trying to prove that freedom is good? Or that democracy is good? They just take it as granted refusing even to think about them.
And on that note I could make a conclusion that Imperial Faith is times more intellectual and philosophical than Federal’s beliefs in freedom and democracy.
I am really glad that you think so. I have to admit myself that I agree that democracy and freedom are not 100% ills, even if I usually accent the debate on their negative parts. But I perfectly understand that there are no universal goods and ills, and that includes democracy and freedom. Even good things can bring evil, and some evil things can bring good with them. As it is said, the most horrific atrocities are always committed with good intentions.
In any way, I am really glad you look at such phenomena critically, because when I speak about them negatively, it’s exactly what I plan to achieve - just for you to think about them yourself and not take any indoctrination as absolute truths.
D. Kim, Strike Commander,
State Protectorare, CMC,
Caldari State
P.S.
And disappear himself
P.P.S.
I usually equate terrorism to “poor man’s war” and for me just the mere fact of it means nothing.
I agree with your position and we will continue to support the Caldari State and their efforts to free Black Rise from Gallente control. Anyone can see this is righteous and good and as it is condoned and made lawful for the 24th Imperial Crusade to freely wage war in this region against Gallente and Tribal forces, by the current Empress and prior Empress, her Holiness Empress Jamyl I, then it is also holy.
I have often fought alongside Caldari State loyalists in the Black Rise and we offer our full support.
Lady Ayasashi Akaya
Imperial Major, 24th Imperial Crusade
