They are. This directly ties into the main point of my argument, which is that these players use massive group play as a psychological crutch to offset this fear, because it’s much easier to handle risk and stress when you do so in a large group. “At least I’m not alone” plays a very, very big part in risk tolerance, and the willingness of people to engage in actions they otherwise wouldn’t have.
You’re trying to be a “Gotcha Andy” with all of these tangents, huh?
No, I’m not. Something being slow is not something being difficult. Something that is slow but easy is tedious. Something that is slow but difficult can be challenging. These have very different effects on a player’s reaction to them.
So which is it? Are they cowards because they’re afraid of loss, or cowards because they blob?
What risk? It’s all easily replaced, remember? No value except the objective value of the market, so there’s no real danger of loss.
No, I’m pointing out the inconsistencies in your arguments.
hehe you fell for the classic internet troll trap
Just go play the game.
Roam frigs/cruisers in lowsec solo
and don’t get as furious as you are over something off-topic and trivial.
Aiko and Destiny do this for fun. They like it. That’s fine.
If you don’t, you can easily leave.
Anyway, still no wardec from Goons or anything. The Little Alliance That Could seems to be too busy doing things that “actually matter” to deal with someone talking ■■■■ about them on the forums. But who knows, maybe I’ll get invited to come down south to engage in some “REAL PvP” in the form of a 1 vs. 76 against a titan gang. They’ve done it before.
Sooo… your response to the idea that nobody in null gives a ■■■■ about your opinion is to crow that… nobody in null appears to give a ■■■■ about your opinion?
You know you want the goal on the other end of the field, right?
Got told today again by some 11-23 zKill record drone that I should go to null-sec to fight them in “REAL PvP.” I asked what the difference was with regard to the location where the fight would take place; what difference does the system make if you’ve already got a proper combat ship? Didn’t get a response to that, but I can imagine that it has something to do with needing to turn a 1 vs. 1 into a 15 vs. 1 for it to be a viable engagement for them. Then I’d say “GF” as my pod is being locked inside the bubble, while they’d say something along the lines of “lol ty 4 salt” or maybe something about my mother.
At least they’re usually quiet when I’m reaping them in high-sec.
For what it’s worth, I at the very least appreciate that you’re not a hidden-profile forum alt ■■■■-poster who hasn’t logged in in over half a decade, unlike the boomers you can observe hawking up some phlegmy thread cancer in between senility-induced rage at anyone who still enjoys logging in and playing the game instead of circle-jerking each other about who needs to be banned from it. Genuine compliment, even if we disagree on everything else.
Seems you picked the wrong side in the Parabellum war, as I noted you were wardeced with one of my alts a week or so back. Nothing but tumbleweed in Finanar now.
And I do appreciate it. I’ve never understood the forum-alt thing… like, are you trying to hide from consequences in EVE? Is someone gonna blow up your imaginary ship because you were mean to them on teh intarwebz?
And, FWIW, keep in mind that I’ve never said your style of PVP is wrong or worthless. I said it wasn’t my bag, because to me, those fights don’t matter. They’re ephemera, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be fun for the people in them. My objection is to calling people cowards when they’re risking things that aren’t easy to replace, things they value.
You value the kind of reputation you’ve cultivated. So that’s what you’re risking, and why your fights have meaning for you. The guys you’re talking about don’t value that kind of rep. If they were to go into your kind of fighting, they’d be risking absolutely nothing. It’d be empty, meaningless, so there’d be no ‘bravery’ involved.
They want the big, hard-to-get toys. That’s what has meaning and value for them. And the ones who just have them for ginormous suitcases and hangar queens, but won’t risk them? The FCs who tell people to dock up their faction capitals so the other side can’t get shiny killmails? Yeah, those absolutely are cowards. No argument at all. But cowardice is subjective, especially in video games.
I never picked any side, I just send ally offers to anyone I can, as long as I think there would be targets within a reasonable distance. That entire war was way too far for me to bother.
Once again, that only applies to a small percentage of null-sec residents. Most line members aren’t risking anything at all; they’re just “meat inside chair” to fill out the fleet roster.
There are behaviors I observe on a daily basis that absolutely reinforce my belief in my statements. I will bait approaching targets in under-powered ships (i.e. going 1-2 size tiers down). Or I will use a hauler or a Venture when I see a high-end frigate approaching, or something like that. Only like 1 out of 200 will do anything about it. Most just observe for a bit and then warp away. When I actually attack directly instead of baiting, many will either try to burn back to gate, or just not fight back at all. And then looking back on those engagements, it becomes apparent they could’ve won if they tried.
I don’t regularly observe these behaviors from targets who aren’t null-sec residents.
I’ve had so many ejections recently that I actually lost count. There was a Bowhead, an Orca, and multiple DSTs, but also many fully-fitted combat ships. Which leads me to believe that the “reputation” motivation is actually significant for these players as well, since they try to avoid kill board losses.
Also, I am generalizing of course. There are obviously players in null-sec who aren’t cowards who are only passably brave in group environments. But they’re a tiny minority compared to the average bot-brain farmers who show up to mandatory fleets.
Nah. What you’re seeing there isn’t a pilot who’s worried about his/her rep. You’re seeing a pilot whose corp CEO cares about the corporation’s killboard numbers and is absolutely stupid, so they’ve ordered their members to eject so the ship doesn’t show up as ‘theirs’… which of course is nonsense, but they’ve still given that order.
Happens in a lot of null alliances. See, you don’t have to have a functioning brain cell to be left in charge of a corp when the boss quits. And of course, you don’t need to be good at corporate management when everything’s centralized at the alliance-level.
The member objects not because he’s trying to protect his rep, but because he’ll be punished if he doesn’t.
That applies pretty universally across EVE, though. Most of the guys in FW aren’t risking anything, either. Most of the solo PvPers out there don’t care about winning or losing, they’re just looking for the rush—so no risk—and have market alts that make sure they’ve got income levels that most nullbears would envy.
People talk about ‘oh, the null income’, but honestly… a lot of the guys out in null aren’t doing anything out there for ISK. It’s market alts or maybe j-space, and in a significant portion of the people I knew… nothing at all. They don’t need to. Ship losses (other than the faction caps or insane bastards like me flying special-purpose logi/booster T3s to anchor the logi) get SRP’d to a high degree, so they don’t really need ISK at all. A lot of them don’t even login except for the big fleet actions.
So to say ‘most line members’… is almost always going to be wrong. There’s just way too many overlapping venn diagrams of motivation for anything to really encapsulate (no pun intended) the motivations of ‘most’ line members.
If players get punished for taking solo fights with a reasonable win chance, that means null-sec is indeed fostering an environment of cowardice.
Most FW players are there to farm LP and not to fight at all. FW hasn’t been about PvP since the early years of the previous decade.
Anyway, I’ve lived in null-sec, and have gone out there occasionally since then, and most of the time, they’ll refuse to take a solo fight, or engage a small gang, unless they have ten-to-one odds or better. This is just the fundamental truth of the matter. Brave people don’t behave like that, and that’s why they quit and do other things.
This is symptomatic of one of two things: either those players are indeed scared of fighting unless the commissar forces them to charge the enemy in a massive human wave, or they look down upon player combat with such disdain that they only engage in it only when they absolutely have to, to get it out of the way as if they’re popping a painful cyst, because they need to get back to the real meat of their gameplay, which is farming as many digits into their wallets as possible. And the latter would be indicative of an even worse disease.
I’ve known plenty of low-sec and high-sec pilots who fly under the same kind of orders. Look at all of the low-sec guys who fly with implants, but swap right the hell out of that pod before they go into null. Mustn’t risk the expensive pod!
Privilege, be it wealth, power (even the pathetic power of corp CEOs), or any other kind, fosters cowardice. Welcome to humanity. How it is, how it’s always been, how it’ll always be.
Except that you’re misinterpreting their actions based on your motivations.
You want a fight. They want to be making money. So it’s in their interests to not give you a fight you enjoy. If you enjoy your trip into their space, you’ll come back. They don’t want you to come back.
“I have better things to do than pander to you” isn’t cowardice. It’s just a different set of priorities.
Or they’re not scared, and they don’t look down on you, they just don’t want what you want.
To look down on you, they’d need to care.
So having a different agenda that gives them their dopamine fix in ways that don’t involve disrupting other peoples’ fun is a disease? Good to know.
I just noticed, the people in the forum PvP here more than they do in the game. You have been shooting each other down in another user’s thread once again. This thread was originally about Max, a player living in Ecuador playing on a Mac, who is simply questioning his overall objectives in this game. You’ve derailed the topic making it all about you and your ego.
@Maximus_Raaz if you are still here, I hope you find your path and find purpose in Eve Online. I wear many hats in this game. At present, I am a simple astro-miner trying to milk kernite out of these rocks. I have no idea what I will do with all the ISK I make. I sure don’t Plex or buy Omega, because I am a casual player. Games such as this (free to play with option to pay), if I stick it out more than a year, I toss them ten bucks. Not because I want anything, just because the dancing bear should get paid. The last PvP game I did that with was Apex Legends.
I don’t live here on these forums, unlike some of these people I am seeing. Once again enjoy whatever you do in the game and be sure to enjoy the real world as well. Fly safe o7
I think this is just common sense. If you know you’ll be fighting inside bubbles, and that pod loss is almost guaranteed, you make a cost/benefit analysis on whether you want to pay X amount of money for the additional efficiency the implants provide. For someone flying a sub-cap, the answer is most likely “no,” so they swap out the pods. This isn’t fear as much as it is a mathematical calculation. Fear would mean they don’t go at all. So I think this is a really bad example.
And therein lies the irony. These players, while not wanting to fight anyone (at least not remotely fairly), have created a false narrative that their null-sec gameplay style is the epitome of “real” PvP. Yet they’re only there to farm money. While wanting to farm money in itself isn’t cowardice, making themselves out to be these kinds of elite PvP warriors while not being willing to back it up when called out is.
Because I can tell you that like a solid fifth of the players I make a pass at (successfully or not) will feed me that “real PvP” line unprovoked, but I know for a fact that if I were to go and knock at their door they wouldn’t do anything either unless they have enough caps on standby to feel comfortable getting fed a free kill.
They care a lot when I’m killing them, trust me. Some will rail for hours about it. But when I look at their kill records, and see them in 100+ gangs beating down on some ratting Myrmidon that took a wrong turn, that’s “real PvP” to them. It’s a massive double standard.
The problem isn’t with what they do, it’s with what they say they do while refusing to actually do it.
I’m not criticizing them for their gameplay; I’m criticizing them for their double standards and their hypocrisy, and by extent their ostensible cowardice that acts as the root cause for both.
What would you think about me if I constantly talked about being the best, but kept telling you that I’m “too busy to deal with small fry like you” every time you challenged me to a fight to prove it? I bet you wouldn’t think “wow, DC must be a real elite player!”
The OP got all the answers they needed. Then the thread evolved into a different sort of discussion. There’s not really a problem with that.
Why? Why is one risk/benefit analysis a reasonable calculation, but the other is cowardice? They’re both exactly the same thing: ‘Is doing that worth my effort to reverse the cost?’ As far as I can tell, the only difference is which one is something you’d do.
Only a very few groups in null ever claim to be ‘elite PvP’. Usually, they’re the ones like PL and NCdot that don’t make money by undocking. They make money by renting space out to groups whose assses they’ll kick if they don’t pay their rents on the regular, and extra on demand.
And yeah, they have their idea of what ‘real PvP’ is. You have your idea. So what? You think dropping capitals on a single ship isn’t it. They think flying around in a single ship trying to prove you’re a badass isn’t it.
But make no mistale: ‘real PvP’ and ‘elite PvP’? Not the same thing. ‘Elite PvP’, in the mouths of a lot of null, is a derisive, insulting term directed at those groups (NC/PL/etc) who try to invoke it to defend being parasitic feudal landlords. They’ve spent the last 20 years holding themselves up as ‘elite’ because they had more capitals, because they made money without having to work for it, because they could (pre-fatigue) jump around the game to take a big fat dump on any fight they wanted.
Most of null hates ‘Elite PvP’.
No, they don’t care what you want. They care about what they want. Just like you don’t care about what they want, you care about what you want.
I highly doubt that’s real PvP to them. It’s more like sweeping the kitchen floor. When they give you the ‘real PvP’ line, as you put it, are they telling you to go gank some dumbass in your hecate, or are they telling you to go get 50-60 friends and come back when you’re worth the effort?
It’s the same difference as the one between not doing anything except sending the player a mail saying “lol get rekt scrub come to [system xxxxx] and do some REAL PvP moron” and saying “oh yeah? you think you’re tough camping that gate? give me a moment” and then going and switching out to, say, a more expendable combat ship.
There is principle involved in considering yourself to be elite, but then never doing anything to back it up.
I don’t have a concept of “real” PvP. It’s just PvP to me. However, I have the right of opinion to think and express my view that players who talk about “real” PvP, but then never do anything outside of a large group and SRP/N+1 gameplay are cowardly. This was part of the on-topic argument with the lamentation that was expressed by OP/others about groups beating down single targets being a massive turnoff for players, especially those who are trying to get their foot in the door as a PvPer. This actually hurts player retention too, and not in the way that, say, high-sec ganking does, because players who go out looking for fights are likely to become long-term players unlike high-sec carebears. And I was trying to point out that the fault lies not with the new players trying a hand at fighting, but with the gatekeepers who beat down anyone who does try in order to retain their self-anointed titles as elite “real” PvPers.
Well, I don’t think they’re elite. I think that they’re cowards who are using underhanded means to suppress players who either already are or have the potential to actually become elite.
Maybe the point has been lost by now, but I was basically telling the OP (around post 40/41) to not get discouraged by getting ganged up on because the players doing it are doing it because they aren’t particularly good, are usually afraid to go after targets alone, and use group play as a crutch.
