Map data isn’t useful in telling where someone is if they are travelling fast. It is useful in telling if someone is sitting in one spot killing rats.
Local is good for both sides in telling you who is in system with you.
While I’m on record and still believe that local could be replaced with a delayed constellation chat that provides some but not 100% precise Intel it is a fair comment that local provides Intel to the defender while maps do not.
Simple fact is that if you make something easier, and a delayed local make it easier to catch people then you should make it harder to find people who are trying to play below the radar for correct game balance.
When I was in Stain I had people routinely come in hunting because I was active, they had checked the map, the thing was that I knew this as all but two of the belts were well away from the gates and out of D-scan range. So how did they know to come to the belts, because I was in local?
Any ratting activity in space is shown on the map, you just need to look at Dotlan to see how many rats were killed in the last hour. So there is no way that I can hide my activity, as soon as I shoot rats, it is noted, how is that correct, talk about free intel and a half!! It is so telling when people talk about local as free intel, they conviniently forget about the map data, well doesn’t surprise me at all.
So for balance purproses if you make local delayed or less efficient and you have not made it harder to locate active people then you have changed game balance, which is the point you are ignoring. So what do you want, just make it easier for hunters, be up front about it, well come to think of it you have, you want to see more destruction in nullsec.
But the point is that this change to local will make it a lot harder for solo and small groups to operate and have very little impact on the big groups, and changes balance in a very negative way. Over to you Salvos to head in a different direction to my point.
Delayed constellation chat?
How would that work exactly?
Havent seen this proposed before.
No local at all. Only a chat for the entire constellation. Interestingly the constellation and region chats were removed with the March release.
Basic summatation that I imagine would be if you are anywhere in the entire constellation for 5+ minutes you show up.
So a fast frigate might be able to get in and across before it appeared in local. But a BS roam would appear.
The main point is that because it’s constellation wide it no longer gives away exact systems.
Now as raised above map stats would be unduly precise then so also should get obfuscated down to the constellation level rather than exact systems.
Still shows activity for people to connect but no longer tells you exactly which system.
I think this is the case of getting so used to local that you stop using D-scan so when local went down the enemies where using D-scan and you where not and that lead to your death.
No, they are not. Map data is delayed by 30 minutes for anything relevant for intel purposes.
Either way: I congratulate both you and Salvos for trying to turn EVE into an even bigger and less rewarding chore than it already is, while blissfully ignoring that none of what you suggest will help null sec get more dangerous or less safe over the long run.
Again: No changes to local are needed at all. Look at Delve. Delve has superior defense efforts with their supercapital umbrella. They drop on anything to protect their able members. And yet, each day billions upon billions die in Delve. Despite perfect local intel.
EVE does not need local removed. EVE needs more people flying around and hunting. Removing or changing local will cause the opposite because fewer targets are available. Congratulations, you made EVE worse than it was before. 
I expect yes, they knew to start d-scanning belts looking for you, cos they saw you in Local. Local intel worked against you in this regard.
Map data only let them know NPC has exploded there in the last hour. Nothing more.
Correct.
Ive pointed out at great length for years how Local intel inordinately favors the prey in a system. With Local delay/removal, that burden is shared in part by aggressors not knowing if you are in the system either.
So in your example above, without Local intel, those interlopers would have know that NPCs where being destroyed there in the last hour, but not have known if you are still in the system or even logged in anymore, Local is what clued them to start looking for you with d-scan/heuristic search pattern to ascertain if you are infact still on a belt/sig doing whatever you were doing there.
Large corps always have the advantage against small corps. Its a matter of scale.
Even now, with Local as it is, that is the case.
Post-change, the same conditions will apply not only to larger vs smaller, but also large vs large and small vs small.
On every scale, you will always be disadvantaged vs a larger/better/richer corp than yours.
Removing/delaying Local intel does not change that.
How about you two start your own thread ?
So system Local intel would be replaced with a delayed Constellation intel?
Or would Local chat still exist, should someone communicate locally in it, alongside the Constellation intel/chat?
Intriguing. I think I like it.
There, I disagree.
Map data is not related to Local intel, or your proposed Constellation intel.
Generalizing map data to a Constellation level severely reduces everyones intel, everywhere.
Map data is not changed/affected by removing/delaying/Constellizing Local intel.
There is no connection between the two, they are completely different.
Changing one, does not necessitate changing the other in any form or sense.
A number of times I had not done anything at all and was safed up cloaked and they came in system and went to the next system without checking the belts, so that throws your local comment right out of the window. They were checking for ratting activity.
Many of them warped to the belts in uncloaked ships and then started using D-scan, because I was clicking D-scan and picked them up, but I was also aligned and was well away from the warp in points so I would wait until they came into my belt and out I went. It also worked with people who were cloaked…
It is 20 minutes actually… and it details people in space and docked. Pretty easy to work out from that whether it is worth heading to that system or not.
Well the sov system was changed to make smaller entities able to set up in nullsec, yes/no?
That was obviously the aim of CCP to make more engaging local small conflict and it worked.
What this does is crucify the small guys and makes no real difference to the big guys, it changes game balance negatively for the game as a whole, in my opinion.
So what does this mean for a player such as me, well simple, I am now only ratting when my alliance is very active and in the period when there are less people on as a whole. Outside of my alliances main period I am playing other games. That is so I have more chance of people spotting people before getting near where I am operating. Before I ratted when I felt like it. If I was only able to play during the main Eu TZ and US TZ I would be joining the Imperium in Delve. Cause and effect, I am no longer ratting in more vulnerable periods and if I was I would be joining the biggest and best defended alliance in the game, because it makes sense to do so.
You are actually not all the time. By knowing who is in local, as a small group you know if there is something engageable in system or if you can just move on because the VNI on dscan is just a bait. Knowing what is in local helps you destroy more things without dying needlessly to a worthless blob.
This is nonsense.
People still want/need isk/materials.
Yes, in settings that are less engageable for you. For instance, only in super capitals or carriers with titans and other supers ready to drop on you. This is already the happening a lot. And the same goes for mining: Reduced to Rorqs with cynos only. Less content for small groups and thus less destruction. This is not nonsense, this is reality.
And before you give me your nonsense: No, skills are not an issue. Especially rich, big alliances can just give their members free skill injectors from their skill farms to insta skil up to a super or carrier.
That follows my observation of how they found you.
Your anecdote shows that lack of Local eould not have impaired you.
You d-scanned them on approach and searching for you.
Map data has many uses. Its just data. Up to you how intelligently you use it.
It still is not the same as Local intel at all.
Removed/delayed Local affects everyone in the same way.
It does not differentiate between larger and smaller.
That’s fine.
Rationally you should have been doing that already before.
Do you want to tell me you are happy with fewer targets in space? You are really weird.
Than you are naive. No local is a lot less trouble for a big group with lots of alts that they can place on gates as scout bots than for a smaller alliance/group with not as many resources.
Excuse me … it is a mess to follow this, so I have to ask.
Are you saying that, without local, there would be less targets in space? Which space would that be? How would no local cause even less targets than now, when certain people already dock up as soon as someone enters?
I D-scanned when people were in local… I was not going to mash that button for no reason at all was I and I was not in WH space.
Not what I was saying, I said it was part of game balance.
Well that shows your ignorance of game balance in this factor which I explained above.
Not good for the game, there are less people active and I am proof of that.
As for this:
I run back grab my Vaga and go murder them, 13 kilmarks (final blows) on the one in my ratting system also kills your point stone dead.
Take that up with Drac.
He seems to think removing/delaying Local makes it unfairly easy for the hunters,
I agree with his point too. It makes it easier to catch people which is my point, but it makes it more difficult to make informed decision on what you do.