And Nullsec Alliances are? I laugh my ass off. Most Nullsec stations exist for years and unless we have one big war like twice in a decade, absolutely nothing “eviction like” happens there. And even if a station is attacked, the defending alliance and all their friends can reach this system to defend it in less than a few hours (looooong before the timer) with their max-force if they wanted.
You obviously never lived in a wormholes for a longer period of time. This “closing off your home” simply isn’t done by any of the larger groups. Nobody does it. Period. Because they want to have large scanned and open chains to be able to roam and fight. Our own Alliances home system was “closed off” for like 5 hours in the last 3 MONTHS combined. And in addition you can do ■■■■ about someone opening it by rolling in via a random connection. During your offline hours, which means like 16 hours each day.
So if you would want to attack a wormhole group, you simply could do that with bringing a single scanner in, wait for their offline hours and then scan the next best K-space connection. Then begin to bring your forces in and shoot their stations. It takes less than a day and some scanning effort. It isn’t like a JSpace system is somehow “cut off” from the rest of the world behind some magic dimensional barrier. Just learn how the game works.
Entirely not true. Thats myths spread on the forums and on reddit all the time. Totally exaggerated farming values of dudes who want to get some attention or clicks for youtube videos or streams. The average wormhole resident probable makes LESS ISK than the average Nullsec Resident of the same skill level. Why? Because WH sites are pretty limited and you can’t feed a group with them. You barely have like 7-10 Anos spawning a whole WEEK in your own hole and you can’t hope to constantly farm the neighboring holes because, well, there are hostile players in them that can and will disrupt your farming operations.
The next time you see someone claiming he is making 2b/hr in his “farming WH”, think about the fact that he can do that maybe once a week for 2 hours, needs to invest ~50-60B in a Fortizar and Dreads to even begin doing it, can have his hole evicted by the next best PVP group that realize this is just a farmhole with no defense fleet in it (see, the pendulum of “cutting off a system” swings both ways, it can and will be also used against you).
And finally: Everything he has in there is at full risk without any asset safety. He either defends, evacuates or loses it all. Which has happened to even larger WH Groups like Hole Control, FFEW, HK and others. If the attacker uses the mechanic to his advance and cuts off the connection while your main PvP fleet is outside, you either win the fight for controlling the chains or you probably lose everything you have built in there.
Nullsec would be dead already. Because if they wanted the same treatment, they could simply move into a WH and just do it. There are lots of systems open for the grab if you are a large group and can defend it. Fact is: The benefits of Null: Cyno Projection, Constant Resource Respawns, Guaranteed Access are by far outweighting the benefits of a WH. That is the reason the Nullsec Alliances are living there and not in a C6 WH. That is why they can build and hold MASSIVE supercap fleets (hint: a single Titan is worth more an a years income of a small WH group) and spam structures all around, not really caring for the costs.
Nullsec absoltely does not NEED Asset safety. They WANT Asset safety to keep playing their easygame of stomping everyone with an offensive ship teleporter (Cynos) while keeping all their stuff safe with a defensive asset telporter (AS). Maximum Stupid Gameplay Design.
if this change goes through - meaning retroactive reimbursment for horde I am going to unsubscribe, 3B byout for a super is ridicuolus favorism towards horde. You will loose all my accounts just saying
Null Sec absolutely needs Asset Safety as it is much more accessible to assault and attacks than wormholes. As for the income: The MER regularly shows that wormholes rake in ridiculous amounts of ISK by the few people that live there.
Nullsec has far larger player numbers to form defenses and a cyno mechanic to bring a maximum defense fleet if needed long before any timer hits. So no. Nullsec needs proper asset management (never store stuff in a location that you can’t evacuate in case you cannot defend) and proper EVAC/Defense Plans in case a station comes under attack.
Learn to read a statistic. The average WH player is much more skilled (both ingame and personal) than the average Nullsec player. That is the main reason he makes more money on average. Any wormholer joining a large Nullsec alliance would get even richer doing that because he could basically begin to farm like 24/7 on all his accounts if he just wanted to. And absolutely nothing would stop him from just farming any WH that spawns in his Nullsec space either. In ADDITION to whatever riches he can make in his nullsec area already. Becuase he is good at playing the game and not afraid of a space without local.
It has little to do with the design of the space - which is objectively worse than having whole regions under CynoUmbrellaProtection - but everything with the mindset and abilties of the players living there.
That is hardly possible because null sec players are required to spread out (as repeatedly stated and gameplay-mechanically-wise implemented by CCP) and can’t stick together in just a handful of systems. If whole alliances could live off of one constellation in null sec (similar to 1 or 2 systems for the tiny Wspace alliances), they would and could get the same kind of income streams that Wspacers enjoy.
However, we used to have this with 50k CFC chars farming the small Delve region to ridiculous levels; it was not good for the game.
Sry if the people you live with are dumb and lazy. Thats probably why I don’t want to live in null. The people there just make my brain hurt, they are talking all day long about what is “not possible” instead of just doing it.
Sorry, what exactly is preventing nullseccers from just forming a fleet and doing stuff together instead of everyone just solo grinding all day long and then complaining if he gets busted by the next best small roaming gang?
The fact that you cannot cram a whole lot of people into a given system. It doesn’t even have something to do with PVP ruining your day. It’s simply that most systems, constellation and many regions don’t generate a lot of income inherently.
Last time I checked Anos respawn pretty fast, Ore Belts are pretty vast, you can do moon mining to no end and instead of rolling away any incoming WH out of fear of the big bad wormhole people, you could just form a fleet, take it by force and extract billions of Blue Loot, Ore and Gas out of it. Your problem is greed, you don’t want to cooperate because it lowers the individual gains of all those multiboxed chars. You don’t want to share, because you’d like to have an environement where every single ISK goes into your own single pocket.
So don’t tell me you cannot squeeze 30 people into a grinding fleet and just make money nonstop while having full protection against 90% of random roaming- or filament-gangs out there, via your own numbers in Fleet plus a Cyno on one or two of them to call in the waiting staging Fleet.
If my group would like to bother with Nullsec politics and it’s ecomaniac and sometimes outright crazy leadership figures and just join one of the big alliances and claim/rent a single constellation as part of any block, we would drown in riches.
Greed plays a role, but it’s not the sole driver. Individual constellations inherently do not provide all the minerals, PI, anom bandwidth, logistics reach and other necessities that Wspace all benefits in a few systems. You just need a hole or two to reach low sec. Deep null sec like Feyth, Cobalt Edge, Branch or Tenerifis require several cyno mids. If you live in this kind of deep space, politics is always at play and a big part of your system as you are completely depenent on your neighbors closer to LS/HS to not shut your route down and trap you in a hard to escape and hard to supply location.
Give it a try. I heard Drone Lands are up for grabs now. It has crazy good space. Just find out what riches you can extract from a constellation.
What has all that to do with “making money” where you live? As I already said: Don’t be stupid.
Yes, Wormholes can reach HS or LW within a few jumps: BREAKING NEWS - USE THAT. They are spawning in YOUR REGION as well. Secure one that has a good HS connection and do Logistics all day long. You can squeeze a hundred DSTs through if you want to. Ping an OP, get a couple of DST pilots in fleet, get some PvP chars to protect them, make 5 Hauling Runs out of your Deep Null to some HS station and from there your HS Logistic Department takes over with Freighters.
Or just juse Pochven? Ping a Logistic OPs. Get some DST Chars in Fleet, bring some PvP ships for securing the operation and just filament into pochven. Secure a few gate jumps, meet up in a single system and then Filament all your DSTs out under protection of your PvP wing. And Voila, all of your DSTs will end up in HS.
Jesus why do I have to explain such simple things to you?
Because these things are not simple. You don’t have to secure “a few gates”, you’d have to secure a whole number of gates, wormholes and other connections.
On the other hand, you only have to secure 1 or 2 wormhole jumps.
IT has everything to do with money making as you cannot make all the things needed in your constellation to make ISK by just what that constellation provides, especially not if you want to have a lot of people living there and provide them with ships, modules and ammo, services and structures.
And to bring this back to AS: You also need that access through hostile null to get your assets out. All politics and null day-to-day aspects if you are not part of a big blob.
Proper planning my dude. Do you think we have 2j Jita every day? No we don’t. We also sometimes have to do our logistic vial 5-8 WH jumps until we have a proper HS exit. Having a PvP fleet for escort ready on the chain just helps.
If you would just cooperate and communicate, you’d probably find a decent 5j HS connection from within your own controlled alliances space every day. And then use your Cyno- and PvP capabilities to claim it by force, stopping others from interrupting you. If you want to go through hostile space, fight for that right of passage instead of relying on magic teleporters.
I don’t need to be a cook to see if someone is too stupid to boil an egg.
All those claims “this isn’t possible” “that isn’t possible” are self made problems. Explain to me how Nullsec could survive, grow and wage wars (a LOT more than we see today) when no Asset Safety was present? If you lost an outpost, everything on there was cut-off from your access and you had to deal with it. If you lost a POS, everythingin there dropped or got destroyed. If you had a Super, you had to log it out or evacuate it.
Still it worked for more than a decade. And BETTER than it does work now. A LOT BETTER.
“Breaking: Study shows owning a horse makes you live longer!”
Completely not because being able to afford a horse, means being able to afford better food and healthcare.
Stated over and over again. People are older, have kids and responsibilities. If I had to log off in a super every time I go for a family holiday, or weekend, I’d not log back in.
How about not personally owning a Super then if it is to inconveninent to maintain it properly?
I mean, its one click to “board ship” and then log out, deal done, Super is safe.
ProTip: Give the Super to your Corp or Alliance, so they are at the responsibility to evacuate or log it off with a sitting char. And in case of a big fight, they can hand it over to you for the battle if you can be online at this time.
Some things are just so simple. As I say: self-made problems. You guys are just so used to be triple-digit-billion ISK wealthy while under full casual protection that you can’t even imagine any other life any more. You want to have the cake, eat it and prevent it from being challenged all at the same time. And best with effortless ingame mechanics that you have nothing to do with.
I can’t believe how I have to explain such basic things to you. Go learn to boil that egg properly before you try to teach someone to cook. Gee!
We had indestructible stations that gave you a lot more freedoms how to engage in a war or deployment or other activities. You could leave your assets behind and go some other place to attack someone, help someone, claim new space or do something else like a little vacation deployment. You could always come back to your assets either because no one attacked or if someone did, you could reclaim the station or get logistics spies into the new holders and extract the assets that way.
That kind of freedom is why we need to go back to conquerable rather than destructible structures. They were never the kind of deadweight that anchored you into a place because you always need to be ready to defend it at all cost. That’s what I want to have back. Upwell is a huge content and activity dampener that ruins the game.
You also couldn’t own more than you could handle. As you said, supers and titans were forced to live with coffin chars in POS. That limited their numbers and usefulness. In that regard, Upwell also contributed to a much deteriorated gameplay experience because now you can own multiple of these ships without necessarily needing the chars to hold them. Another content and activity dampener.
Well, then we finally agree. Asset Safety isn’t needed. Thank you.
What is needed is a complete rework of Citadels to be fully destroyable while having conquerable outposts in a limited number as staging- and fallback headquarters.
The build cost for titans starts at around 120b counting raw materials, excluding any industry fees, assuming perfect bpos. Add a ~20b indy fee tax on top.
Market price of a titan nowadays touches a 200b mark, and ~60b for a super. How do you justify claiming that 15% of even 100b is 10b?
Did you misunderstand the issue presented? The fee was all over the place, with some hulls being too cheap to get out of asset safety, given their current raw material price - and not to mention the current market price.
Also, will anyone who extracted their faction titan for, essentially, 0 isk - be billed accordingly?
There were reports of this issue even after the WWB, with many a super stuck in Irmalin. Yet you did nothing to fix that then.
Now suddenly supers and titans are too expensive for the folks to pay for their asset safety. After they did nothing to defend them.