Update on Security of the Empire


(Gaven Lok'ri) #101

You personally are certainly kill on sight, just like EM, Mizhara, and several other groups and individuals that have shown hostile intent to Amarr.

GSF as a whole is a generally hostile but distant entity, probably the closest comparison is the Angels.

Our issuing war decs is entirely a tactical decision, not a change of diplomatic state. That is, they are done for immediate objectives and not as statements of principle. Our naming you a -10 target is the statement of principle, the war dec is just the paperwork to CONCORD to be able to shoot you if we make the call to do so.

To point out two obvious differences that would affect this tactical decision:

  1. Samira is 100% of Cail Avetatu. Darkar is 50% of The Ghosts of Kahah. You are, what, .003% of GSF?
  2. PIE’s area of operations is Thebeka. You seem to be operating in an entirely different system.

Now I expect from a purely tactical perspective, 1. would be enough, on it’s own, to keep us from bothering with you so long as you are hiding behind a bee logo. But when you combine the two, it’s not a discussion that we have even bothered to have.


(Arrendis) #102

You realize that you just went from ‘we do this as a matter of principle’ to ‘we do this because we think we can get away with picking on a smaller group’, right? That you threw any pretext of ‘principles’ in your wardecs away?


(Aldrith Shutaq) #103

Note to self: principled people must ignore basic tactics and strategy.


(Arrendis) #104

I was gonna edit this in, but I don’t want to give the impression that I put this in before Aldrith posted (since I took so long writing this bit):

There’s nothing wrong with making the tactical decision of ‘we’re not poking that bear because even though there’s only like a 0.001% chance they’ll notice, their pilots just might be bored enough. After all, they just dropped 1000 guys in a wormhole for a week mostly out of boredom’. That is totally legitimate calculus. Frankly, it’s the sane option.

However, if you’re going to go and issue all of these statements about why you’re declaring war on Cail Avetatu that revolve around ‘she’s a terrorist’, ‘she worked with U’K’, ‘she dared to shoot back’ and ‘she’s allowing a refugee relief station to operate on her citadel, the fiend!!’, while making a big show of piety and faithfulness without including the naked calculus of ‘and we think we can win’ then you’re just being hypocritical if you don’t apply those same standards uniformly.

Faith, after all, doesn’t ask you to do what’s easy. A divine mandate doesn’t tell you 'unless, you know, it’s dangerous. If anything, the test of faith would be specifically to acknowledge ‘this will be difficult’ and do it anyway.

And just to make this abundantly clear in the face of Aldrith’s pithy, but ultimately foolish statement: Principles that you don’t hold to in the face of difficulty and danger aren’t principles, they’re conveniences. Masks you like to wear to tell yourself ‘see, this is me’, but you abandon as soon as wearing them might call on them to mean something.


(Alizabeth Vea) #105

I really, really want to make a snarky comment about this being why you keep me around.


(Gaven Lok'ri) #106

What I just outlined is not a change in PIE’s position of any sort, though I am sure you are entirely capable of finding ways to selectively quote and twist words of myself or other PIE members to justify your stance.

The matter of principle is the initial declaration of -10 status. Once that decision is made, then PIE command considers a war justified whenever it is tactically appropriate. But it isn’t a new diplomatic status. From PIE’s perspective, there has not been a notable change in Darkar’s status from before our declaration to after it, the only change is that we have CONCORD permission to shoot.

As such, my statements of justification in this thread have been for the KoS status that effectively takes the cover off the wardec button. So yes, you are correct that they apply to Arrendis.


(Arrendis) #107

Well, as far as claims that I’m ‘selectively quoting’ and ‘twisting’ your words, let me just give you this bit of advice from one of our diplos:

If you don’t want to have your words quoted back at you when you go and contradict them, don’t put them in a public statement. And if you can’t make a public statement you won’t later contradict, don’t be the person speaking publicly about why your alliance does a thing.

Because you’ve done it again. You didn’t cite any of the above as ‘causes for diplomatic status’ or even ‘causes for a declaration of -10 status’. You specifically opened that part of the discussion by talking about what was included on your list as a “cause of our decision to declare war on Kernher’s corporation”

Edit: Really. Just stop typing. PR is all about crafted semantics, and there’s a reason I don’t make public-facing statements on behalf of Goonswarm. None of my questions have been on the alliance’s behalf, they’ve just been about your intentions. Now, even though you’re typing at the moment, I’ll make this offer: don’t say anything stupid, and I’ll just ignore whatever it is you do say. Deal?


(Aldrith Shutaq) #108

I think you are just bitter you cannot make the decision to have Goonswarm declare war on us first.


(Arrendis) #109

Nah. I’d just have to pay for the dec out of pocket. We’ve done similar things in the last couple of months. And let’s face it, it’s a lot more convenient for me that you can’t shoot at me until I rep someone else’s ship.


(Gaven Lok'ri) #110

Wow you caught me in a slight imprecision of language early in a discussion, one that I have just clarified at length. You then took it entirely out of context, from an entirely different thread, to use as a gotcha. Yeah, I think I look so bad right now.

There are plenty of places you can find where I have stuck my foot in my mouth. This ain’t one of them.


(Alizabeth Vea) #111

The most widespread unrest since the Minmatar rebellion is going on and everyone here seems to be sniping at each other in the forums.

I have no words.


(Arrendis) #112

Remember what I said about not saying something stupid? When the two threads are both in part about the situation in Thebeka and both threads of the conversation are about PIE’s wardec against Samira, trying to act like statements in one shouldn’t be looked at when considering what’s said in the other?

Yeah. That’s pretty damned stupid. Otherwise, solid snark. +1.


(Gaven Lok'ri) #113

Don’t worry, Alizabeth, sniping at Arrendis is my irregularly scheduled “transit time between the actually important things” entertainment. The Excubitoris chapter have been quite busy working to quell this revolt in space and on the ground today, though our ground commanders have reported a slowdown in progress due to some incredibly bad weather on Thebeka III.


(Mitara Newelle) #114

Lord Admiral Lok’ri, please refrain using that name for Alizabeth, she has left it behind for good reasons. My thanks.


(Arrendis) #115

I’ll just let Ali correct you on why that form of address is wrong.

Or, you know, Mitty. Dammit.


(Gaven Lok'ri) #116

Understood, Lady Newelle, and my apologies Alizabeth.


(Alizabeth Vea) #117

It is accepted, my lord. Thank you for your understanding.


(Veikitamo Gesakaarin) #118

So who is guarding all that solinum in Thebeka these days?


(Teinyhr) #119

Well, business as usual then?


(Gaven Lok'ri) #120

I am impressed by the bravery of the forces that have come to aid The Ghosts of Kahah. They are misguided, but also remarkably pugnacious.

Fighting in space has continued throughout the last day, with pitched structure centered conflicts in both Thebeka III’s vicinity and the Dresi III planetoid’s vicinity with the Ghosts of Kahah and allies. There has also been varied skirmishing in Thebeka and Irnal with both The Ghosts of Kahah + supporters and Cail Avetatu + supporter.