Ah, I overlooked the complex tactic of gathering 800 of only your closest bestest friends into one place and wait for things to die of boredom.
Yeah⌠fights on that scale are so common ccp was insane for saying they donât plan to focus game balance on them. Meanwhile in the real world small to med groups of capitals are not difficult to deal with.
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Ah. Thereâs your position on the topic of this thread. Anti-balance. Pretty brave of you though, going against the trend of wanting a balanced game. Though I guess everyone says they want CCP to focus on balance, at least they do until thereâs the potential they might lose something opâd.
Balancing around massive fightsâŚ
It was ccp who stayed they are far more concerned with the more common and more enjoyable fights where currently with the exception of the carrier capitals are pretty well balanced
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So how would an upkeep cost work? Here in lies part of the issue that has to be worked out and discussed long before this idea could be implemted.
If the upkeep cost isnât paid, is the ship destroyed? Impounded? Damaged? Does it apply to packaged hulls or on assembled ships only? Is the fee paid by the corp or player? Does it apply to say Orcas, bowheads, and freighters?
Without these details, you donât even have a full idea. And honestly, without details it become a hard to point out flaws and exploits.
For example, if you charge only for assembled ships, people could just buy spare rigs and repackage the ship when not in use. On the other hand, if you charge for just hulls, ship makers get penalized (and those are not all big alliances)
So really the idea needs more details.
well this one is easy since it can not apply to packed hulls.
neither are all the people using themâŚ
also side note but hasnât the orca been completely removed from capital status now?
Actually, yes. Bowhead, orca, and the T1 freighters all no longer require capital ship 1. So if the limit is set at charging an upkeep on ships requiring Capital Ship skills, those would be excluded.
As for not including packaged ships, so if I know the ship will sit for a while, I buy a spare set of rigs and simply repackage until needed. So you now have a balance point. Figure out the cost of say 3 T1 trimark capital rigs, and divide that by the number of days you think a ship should sit before itâs better to repackage.
only the little guy would need to do that. large alliance would just keep their stockpile repacked
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Let me tell you whilst your intention is noble, you have missed a very crucial point in this and that is miners.
Miners basically provide EvE with all the minerals that are needed to build everything thatâS T2 and most things which are T1.
So, letâs assume you introduced the upkeep costs:
- Mineral supply would be needed to repair the fleets
- Mineral prices would raise
- More people would start to mine
=> Having a large capital fleet relies on miners and people like Goonswarm already have both, a huge capital fleet and an abundance of miners
You could say that the mineral costs would be set higher, but smaller groups would then also face the same issues and amongst those the shift from ratting -> mining would mean that the group had less isk to pay for their fleet.
Ofc, this could be tied to âeach member keeps their own gear and takes care of itâ, but thatâd result in a further increase of work for the individual, which puts the blocks into a superior position.
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and waste 300mil in rigs every time they do.
sounds good
and they cant repack without repairing first. even better.
Which is chump change for older players and bigger groups. Bigger groups can do that again and again no problem.
Adding costs will only restrict the caps used by smaller groups. They will reach a point where upkeep cost matches their income before goons/pl do. And because of that they will never be able to build up a fleet to challenge big groups.
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please stop with this sky is falling bull s*, oh my god the amount of hyperventilation from people on this forum is out of control.
You make any form of upkeep scale with the length of time the asset since it was last maintained. A person could pay a small fee to maintain their dread every week or two weeks or they leave it for 5 years and the things a dysfunctional pile of rust, just like battleships in the real world. The cost of refitting is so high governments are hesistant to even consider refitting older ships when they can scrap them at a breakers yard and reuse the steel for cheaper smaller ships that are more expendable.
as an addendum: for a game that simulates a real economy so well maybe upkeep cost should have been brought in 10 years ago. Its an economy of infinite growth, you cant complain about capital proliferation in one thread and then shoot down the most basic, realistic depiction of how to control them in another. Capital ships should dilapidate over time. End of story.
Its as much an economy of infinite growth as it is infinite shrinkage. Both isk and materials are created and destroyed daily.
Caleb, you donât have a grasp on economics. The same argument you use for creating an upkeep mechanic could also be used to bring in the need for capsuleers to consume food and drink, Ships to require fuel, every clone to cost money or resources and a million other âupkeepsâ.
You vastly underestimate the wealth generation of large groups. It wouldnât surprise me if goons have more income per capital than anyone. And definitely more spare rigs than smaller groups.
This mechanic will pretty much make sure smaller groups can never field fleet big enough to challenge the likes of goons.
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WWB disproved this theory outright. 1 guy bankrolled a war so big it overthrew goons and made them leave their space. Yea the aftermath isnât some tale for the ages and its more or less business as usual but to claim that militarily goons are undefeatable is totally ridiculous, they would be by definition limited by how many players they can get online. Asset safety may have done more to allow AFK empires than any other single mechanic change in the last 10 years. If the citadels holding my garbage explode today I donât give a s* at all because I can always recover them later. What Iâm saying is, so that it is completely clear: the game protects assets too much and doesnât penalise failure enough. Once upon a time we were meant to get WIS which was even promoted as a way to attack players who never leave station but thatâs gone along with every other major change to the game since then. Drifters were DOA, stargates are never going to happen, wormholes null/null got nerfed like twice already, now they are buffing capital travel again and god help me if it doesnât result in more PL superbombing anyone so much as sneezing at a poco they own, just like the good old days.
I donât underestimate the wealth at all, 300mil per hour for a super ratting and thatâs just a working figure you should expect real pros to be getting higher than that. L4 burners in nullsec generate disgusting amounts of money too I should know I have level 4 access with guristas and serpentis. Today I went for a roam and I entered an HQ system for XiX or whatever they call themselves now and it had FIVE ratting carriers in space. In total impunity, naturally, because theyâre too far away to attack and any credible threat that comes within a couple jumps is pinged by bots on an intel board and those ratters dock up. Just business as usual.
I like you saying I donât understand economics like its no thing even though I used to be a manager at a business when I lived in Australia jfc watching the whole economy in perth tank and seeing my customers go out of business and having to let employees go and crime rate increasing 20% in a single year, yes imagine being in charge of shipping and international orders and not understanding even basic economics
facepalm
In WWB several groups formed together to create an even bigger group than goons with even more capitals.
How does that help stop capital proliferation?
Is your plan to make it such that smaller groups can only use caps if they form up with larger groups to make super-coalitions and get sponsored by out of game isk banks?
No. I change my stance. You donât have a grasp of common sense.
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You fail reading comprehension, he paid mercenaries to snowball the fight so large that goons had to enact their strategic boredom doctrine while they evacced all their assets.
And still with this sky is falling nonsense how do you expect there to be any disadvantage for the smaller alliance which does not have thousands of capitals sitting around in space doing nothing for years between major engagements? Like what the â â â â entitles the US navy to just neglect its entire global asset list and then online the second some â â â â goes down and everything just works perfectly?
But to address your inane non-point yes I imagine that small groups would need to band together to defeat a larger one, in a game where having a larger fleet of similar skill level is the superior strategy aka have more guys than they do. Maybe the next time goons lose their space it will be because of 3rd party donators again because screwing with goons is fun and profitable especially if youâre talking about trading DED items which groups like them farm 24/7.
Can you justify having TWO Hels sitting in a pos, unpiloted and unused, without using the mental midget crutch of âthe game mechanics allow itâ?
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Because bigger groups can pay the fees and still have more money to spare than smaller groups. You are vastly underestimating the income of large groups.
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Bigger groups can pack up any capitals they donât intend to use in a while and replace the rigs later and still have more resources to spare than smaller groups. You vastly underestimate the income of large groups.
Youâve seen the MER right?
Can you tell me whatâs wrong with that? Obviously the structure is fueled and not seriously threatened. So whatâs the problem?
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As oppose to Somalian pirates or isis with their pristine equipment?
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Yeah I have Iâm well aware that trillions plural are entering the economy every month. Your comments are just so far off base its ridiculous itâs like screaming at heaven by shouting at the reflection in a puddle. The big guys always have the economic advantage the point of the upkeep is that dead weight gets generated and that the bigger the alliance the bigger the dead weight becomes. Sure they might be able to pay for it but they still have to pay for it like everyone else, and the incentive to have people be at least active enough to either repackage their ships and burn rigs (which currently doesnât happen), whelp/suicide things (sometimes it happens) or otherwise pay a fee to keep their ships functioning correctly (as evidenced by repair fees and cyno/jump fuel and the specialised cap mod market aka this already happens but in a static buy-it-once-set-and-forget kind of way) which is more than the current gameplay loop requires.
Perhaps you drive industry further by making them have to dump minerals on âdilapidatedâ ships in order to repair them because they were abandoned so long they basically rusted to their docking bay. And I donât care at all about if peoples feelings get hurt by this, you didnât use it for so many years it became a hassle to repair it? Hereâs a novel idea, reprocess it and build something cheaper with the minerals.
in the past CCP talked about introducing Super-Cores as a way of controlling super proliferation. Maybe the devs just gave up, could be why they let supers dock in citadels. I dunno, what exactly the problem is that lead to this situation but I do know this; I ainât renewing my subscription or buying plex any more. The issues this game has are so obvious and massive. Too much empty space, made WORSE by consolidating anoms in to fewer systems. Too few new activities to do; thereâs bots by the hundreds in catch/impass/curse/lowsec I encounter them every day. Reporting them achieves nothing. Assets are cranked out too quickly, a side effect of space being too large and too safe. Noone defends their homes they just dock and wait for you to go away. CItadels made this problem worse than stations and POS ever did. You can bubble a POS then shoot it to death in like 48hrs, the same thing takes 3x as long with citadels now.
Too stagnant too little risk too few players too much space too much asset generation too much money and too many people defending the status quo while the game gets emptier and emptier because humans are being replaced with bots.
More likely they realised it hurt smaller groups more than bigger groups. Instead they created jump fatigue. Which worked.
Can i have your stuff?
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