Good point. I apologize getting outsiders mixed up.
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Thank you, Melisma, for that clarification. My understanding of Matari spiritualism is incomplete, which is mostly my fault.
In that case, though, what really is the point of the Elders. They seem to be able to call upon a great fleet, for which I am eternally thankful for, but what beyond that?
Are they real people? My understanding of the Elders is that they are real people. And, if they are real people, what do they do?
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To my understanding, modern-day Elders (assuming that the Circle of Elders still validly exists, and that the current Elders are simply not pawns / front for a conspiracy) are most definitely human. Spiritually awake, maybe; carrying the responsibility of keeping our traditions alive, maybe. But still human, chosen from each generation as the previous Elder dies and taught the trade by the surviving ones.
The Elder Spirits are a different legend altogether, although some legends do have it that the Circle of Elders derives its current status through an unbroken line back all the way into times of Myth.
“Surprised” certainly. Thrilled, speak for yourself. Some of us did not appreciate being expected to fall in line behind a mostly forgotten spiritual organization of legends, instead of relying on our living chiefs and shamans.
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If you look up confusion in the dictionary, you will find a picture of me.
If there is an unbroken line of Stark (I mean, somehow. Assuming that they managed to keep the line going after the destruction of Starkman Prime) then why have they not shown up? If ever there was a time to the give the ‘Collective Wisdom of the Tribe’ or even an iota of such a thing back to the Tribe that has nothing of their past then it is now.
If I woke up with amnesia, I would hope and darn well expect my family and loved ones to be there to tell me who I am.
Because it’s a group of people attempting to bank off of religious belief for personal gain.
You know, the norm.
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This is a very, very good point.
Like I mentioned, they don’t have to. There’s no religious text saying that they have to show themselves at any point, or that they owe anything to their respective peoples.
I guess it’s kind of like expecting the sun to shine, and then getting mad when it rains for five days straight.
I’m actually not sure how the line of succession worked for Stark, but I would assume that the respective Stark representatives were kept hidden away or secured between Starkman Prime’s destruction and the Fleet.
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Kind of like people who believe in a god that they can’t definitively prove exists.
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Oh look, someone who supposedly follows a religion, calling out other people for following a religion.
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I don’t follow a religion. I’m spiritual, and my spirituality is informed more by my own experiences than any standardized beliefs.
I figured that you of all people would know the difference there.
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It has nothing to do with standardization, or the word ‘religion’. You claim to be spiritual, and called Elders nature spirits (unless you don’t count yourself in the ‘we’ there), but then levy attacks against other people for believing in spiritual entities. If you believe something must be definitively proven in order to believe in it, then I certainly struggle to see you as a ‘spiritual Matari’.
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:sniffle: They grow up so fast.
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Really? Because if people are going to claim to be “leaders”, as they clearly have, then there’s kind of an expectation for them to lead. Which they weren’t doing. They weren’t even issuing vague proclamations from hiding as a way to inspire our people to keep resisting.
So, you know, while I’m really happy they embezzled funds from the Republic to build a fleet and rescue the Starkmanir, they can f*ck right the hell off in terms of leadership, spiritual or otherwise, thanks. I have my Clan Chieftain, I’ve got my Tribal Chief, and I’ve got my Corp/Alliance/Coalition leader (cuz that’s all the same guy there), in that order.
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Also, I just have to preserve this here because seriously, people call me a lot of names, but this is not one of the normal ones:
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It has everything to do with standardization and the word ‘religion.’ A religion is, by definition, standardized. Spirituality come from the heart and the world.
Without knowing the spiritual inclinations of any of the other Matari here, I can 100% tell you that their beliefs don’t match mine and mine don’t match theirs. We might have discussions about whether the Elders are human or not, but no one is going to call me a heretic for believing anything one way or another, because there is no standardization of these beliefs. You’re literally supposed to believe what you feel, not what some ancient text or some teacher tells you to believe.
So no, I don’t believe that something has to be proven before I believe i it. But my beliefs don’t require support from texts or other practitioners. That’s the difference between spirituality and religion, and that’s why your remarks here have been disingenuous and, at times, flat-out wrong.
You wish.
This argument depends on a very literal interpretation of the word “lead,” and I don’t even think I want to get into that with you, since the first thing you’re going to do to support your point is whip out a dictionary.
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Hiding for centuries and not even letting anyone know they’re alive is not leadership, by any measure.
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If you say so.
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I wish there was a way for sarcasm to come through text as opposed to the reader having to guess.
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Ah yes, of course. Well, not quite. You see, the Takmahl failure and collapse was quite preventable. They just made the wrong mistakes in interpreting the Apocryphon.
You see, the core principle of Sani Sabik as opposed to Amarr Orthodoxy, is that one can transcend ones origins far more readily. Amarr Orthodoxy generally has slaves, commoners, and nobles, with very little mobility between them. Sani sabik holds that if one is strong enough, even a slave could rise to the very top.
But, and this is where the Takmahl went wrong, this requires a social & economic system where such social mobility is possible. Free education for all, as an example. So that those with potential, regardless of their origins, can be identified and make the most of their talents.
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No sarcasm. I’m glad they saved you guys. But that doesn’t excuse a damned thing they did, otherwise.
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Apologies if you took offense; I did not mean to cause any. I have heard from other Matari some ‘buyer’s remorse’ when it comes to the Starkmanir, mostly how we’re still so ‘damn Mary’.
However, I will admit my bias, because I am alive to be biased in favour of the Elders, or persons claiming to be the Elders. I suppose those of you with Tribal Chiefs and clan leaders and shamans already established might see things differently, and no matter how I try, I am not really able to put myself in your position.
However, I do agree somewhat. Now that they have carried out their plan, it’s time for them to step up or step aside. Either the true leadership of the Tribes resides with the Tribal Chiefs, or it resides with the Elders. If ‘Stark’ feels they are the rightful leader of my Tribe, then he or she needs to come and make their case to us.
Of course, since our Chief is kind of new at this, compared to the other Tribes, I again recognize the uniqueness of the Starkmanir position. I’ve often said that the position of Chief went to the loser of the ‘not it’ game. I am not sure of how much jest is in that statement. If ‘Stark’ were to arrive and were to make their case for leadership of our Tribe, I am not so sure there would be much opposition. I doubt even Chief Setul would argue much.
There is a caveat to that, though. If ‘Stark’ were so alien to what the actual, current Starkmanir Tribe is there might be some or significant rejection. Would we recognize ‘Stark’ as one of our own?
I think I might have unintentionally answered my question as to why ‘Stark’ might not have revealed herself or himself to the Tribe.