Wardec infinite rehash


(Kohada Koheiji) #1

I have a question regarding the purpose of War Declarations, as it is currently implemented. To be succinct, does it serve a game play mechanic that is even necessary?

When you try to start a new corporation, with new players, many are going to start out in high sec, running missions, mining, whatever it is you are focusing on. You are in the building stage, preparing to move out to the ‘real’ game, in null.

The current mechanics allow for people to pay a nominal fee, and simply profit off of killing you all; developed pvp corps make money, stifling growth and development, and the end result seems to be that people must leave corp, abandon their enterprise, and play solo, since being part of the ‘guild,’ which is what corps here amount to, is immediately capitalized on and war declared against a fledgling corp before it can even grow strong enough to leave high sec.

I have seen this on many threads over the years, and it is defended pretty poorly, in my opinion. The sole use of wardecs in today’s game seems to be that of ‘chickenhawking’ people trying to build a start for themselves, while under the protection of high sec police. Is there, in fact, any other use of this mechanic?


(Ramona McCandless) #2

Im not sure, from what youve said, that you will find its usefulness an appropriate or acceptable one but these do remain as facts;

  1. It reminds your corpies there is no protection other than what you afford yourselves.
  2. Discretion is the better part of valour.
  3. Eggs should not be kept in one basket.
  4. You only become content if you let yourself be content.

A new corp which survives its first war with less than 10% losses to its total worth in materiel will probably do well. A corp which does not understand the danger either has bad leadership or doesnt understand the nature of the game as well as they may be should and will lose 50%+ of their material.

Now, its possible in the second case for the lost war to steele the mettle of the corp so it learns to avoid it happening again or to mitigate losses. And that is a good thing too.

Its probably also worth mentioning that a lot of High Sec wars start when somebody mouths off at the wrong person because of some silly thing, like the idea that mining is a right.


(Kohada Koheiji) #3

I will respond, first, by pointing out that you did not answer the question, as asked.

The whole point of having high sec/low-sec/null, is to provide varying levels of protection, which SHOULD, in most game theory, provide corresponding levels of risk/reward.

WarDec turns this tried and true MMO mechanic on it’s face, and stomps on it. As O’Brien said, to Winston, the goal is the image of a boot, stomping on a human face, forever. (Nineteen-Eighty-Four, George Orwell)

If THAT was the goal, in EVE, then they have accomplished it, but I really don’t think it was.

Following that, in the presupposition that the designers of the game did intend to follow a reasonable risk/reward system, and DID intend to allow new players to have a path of progression to gain strength before taking commensurate risk, I will proceed to answer your points, as I see them.

  1. This reminder is a reminder that the system seems broken. Concord exists to provide protection to new players. BECAUSE they cannot, yet, afford it, themselves.

  2. Is a trite quote of a debatable saying, and I will ignore it.

  3. Ditto

  4. Ditto

You then go on to say things about how wonderfully a corp has done to survive it’s first war. That’s fine. I agree. It would be an indicator of exceptionalism, but it in no way answers the questions, does it? You have tossed out several ancillary topics, and answered your own red-herring questions, but you have in no way defended the mechanic of war deccing, which serves, today, the sole purpose of nullifying the aforementioned protection for new players, to allow them to develop sufficiently to leave high sec, under the impetus of increased reward for increased risk.


(Ramona McCandless) #4

Oh sorry

Yes.

And I did mention you may not like that mechanic.

If you like I can answer you points in your reply individually but you seem somewhat hostile and so I won’t presume this unless you say you’d like to.


(Kohada Koheiji) #5

Don’t try to bring personality into this, please. I am not ‘hostile,’ in any personal sense. This thread was intended to bring a debate. I am, clearly on the opposing side, and I am ‘hostile,’ to the opposing side.

There is nothing personal, here, in any way, nor need there be. The point to a debate is to argue back and forth, destroying the dross, and ending up with a refined product, the truth.


(Ramona McCandless) #6

Ill take that as a no then.

Sorry to have taken up your time.


(Kohada Koheiji) #7

I accept your surrender. Perhaps more worthy points will be raised by others?


(Ramona McCandless) #8

It seems unlikely if you are not going to allow them to address your rebuttal.

Are you only looking for people who agree with you?


(Kohada Koheiji) #9

I didn’t ask you to stop debating. You chose to because I seem ‘hostile.’ That, of course, is your own opinion, and since I clearly have a position to defend, you can expect me to vigorously do so. To burn away the dross of error, you need to convince me, rationally, that I AM in error. I’m sorry that’s not easy, and may require effort.


(Ramona McCandless) #10

I asked you if you wanted me to address it, and you started talking about things being personal for some reason.

Its unlikely to be personal given that you are writing with a forum alt you made within the last half an hour.

But I shall address it, as that seems ok with you. One moment please.


(Kohada Koheiji) #11

That’s true. This is a forum alt. Your first post provided the reason, which is obvious. If people are angered, here, they will turn to the game to use a mechanic to harm me. You flat out said so.

A forum alt is entirely appropriate since people seem to have a hard time differentiating offline talk with game mechanics, don’t ya think? I’ve played this game, before, and learned. What I learned was to put an alt in front of my main.


(QuakeGod) #12

As in the real world, there are no safe spaces in EVE, snowflake. You are basically wanting a risk-free environment to start out a corporation, then when you think you are strong enough, take off the training wheels and venture out into the harsh world of EVE?


(Kohada Koheiji) #13

In essence, yes. Since that is the MMO design, in nearly every MMO, and it was clearly the point of Concord and security levels, in the first place…

That is exactly what I am asking for, QuakeGod. That you allow people to become familiar with the game, build up to a point of reasonable competency, and then, when they get greedy for the better rewards and leave the ‘nest,’ you can kill them.

Is killing noobs really so challenging, anyway? We all know it’s not. It’s just chikenhawking for easy money. Imo, hs war dec corps are not all that ‘brave.’ They don’t want to really expand and grow. They want to stay in momma’s nest, and kill the other hatchlings.


(Ramona McCandless) #14

In WarDec state you are still more protected than in Low or Null. CONCORD interacts in any conflict not to do with the war, and Faction Police still do their jobs.

Thats actually the goal of a great many people in New Eden over other people in New Eden.

The Wardec system does not change that at all. As above, High Sec is still safer, and its much more practical to learn to not be found while being hunted than to read a book on it.

No, it exists to regulate combat between Capsuleers. In fiction it is there to protect the Empires from the Capsuleers, in game it exists to give a threat to people who want to attack people non-consensually. The fact it protects otherwise undefended shipping is secondary, thats actually FacPo’s job.

The only thing by the way of survival that a new player needs is knowledge, not isk. Unless thats what you mean by “afford”?

Unfortunate, because they are all true and War Decs reinforce these as rules that help survival and prosperity in New Eden. Im not sure why you would disagree. Also simply discounting these in this manner is where I detected overt hostility to the concept of defending WarDec mechanics. “Trite” would not be how I would describe a truism. But lets not dwell on that.

No, its an indicator of not-sucking-at-the-game-ism. Look, the rules of EvE are simple; if you cant be strong or clever or sneaky enough to keep your stuff, someone will eventually take it from you. Its really that simple.

Can you show me what ones you mean? Im pretty sure I stayed on-topic for once.

I believe I have. I have said that it can make new players better at surviving when they do things without CONCORD around because outside of High Sec every day is War Dec day, but with everyone simultaneously. Everybody vs Everybody. EvE if you will.

Perhaps erroding the protection they get from CONCORD by default, but not taking any of the other many many tools for not dying that there are away.

Im not sure where risk/reward come into it. Wars are not started to make isk. They cost isk. If you are Decced by a bigger richer corp, its you who will lose less isk, and if you manage to take something down might even get a small profit.

No, the point of Wardecs is to understand what to do when you get attacked, as this will happen in EvE. A lot.


(Ramona McCandless) #15

Yes, and I am glad to see that you took this wise step before commenting on Wardecs, if you didnt want people to hit you with them.

See, thats one of the things the Wardec taught, right?


(yellow parasol) #16

Yeah, no, lol.

Plus, if wardecs were affordable for newer players, we’d see a lot more people deccing others.


(Kohada Koheiji) #17

The salient point of your response seems to be encompassed in this: ‘Thats actually the goal of a great many people in New Eden over other people in New Eden.’

(I don’t know how to do your multi-tiered ‘quotes,’ yet, so I’m stuck with this until I figure it out. No matter. I’m used to thesis style responses, anyway.)

You state that in WarDec state you are still more protected. I dispute this because of the fact of what a war-dec is. When a war-dec is declared, it can, in many cases, cpmprise not just a corp, but an entire alliance. With a very meager payout, on the war deccer’s part, the security of so called high sec is simply bypassed.

Given that there are a lot more players in high sec than in null, at any time, it seems obvious that under a war dec, HS becomes worse than null sec?

Null sec, in actual game play, seems safer than either low or high sec, under a war dec, once players have mastered the basics, have enough isk to replace losses, you know, all things they’re supposed to learn before being tossed to the wolves.

You say: ‘The Wardec system does not change that at all. As above, High Sec is still safer, and its much more practical to learn to not be found while being hunted than to read a book on it.’

Let’s be honest, here. You don’t really actually ‘hunt.’ You camp chokepoints, sit on Jita and other trade hubs, and chat while you wait for victims to come to you. You’re like a ‘hunter’ in a tree stand with a high powered sniper rifle and a thermal scope, waiting for a deer to show up, and drinking beer from your stand perch ice-box in the meantime. Isn’t that really a more apt description of how it plays out?

You don’t want to, as a hs war dec corp, go out into null, yourself. Too dangerous. But you will quite happily exploit the mechanic to sit in hs, yourself, moderately secure in your marginally better skill points, and skillz, and ships, confident that you can wipe out a new corp of 10 moderately new players, struggling?

Have I misstated any of this?


(Ralph King-Griffin) #18

Explain this


(Kohada Koheiji) #19

You really won’t, no. There’s a reason hs is full of npc-corp member players.


(Kohada Koheiji) #20

In what way?

If you war dec a group, you can kill them, in HS, without repercussion. You gain access to a lot of loot that concord would normally make too expensive… Seriously?