Wardecs are not the problem

(Kannibal Kane) #43

I could get behind something like that.

Remember it needs to be don in a way that also gives the defender the same benefits so they now know when their aggressors login. But make it cost more to get the details on smaller corps vs larger entities. Creating another isk sink which eve seems to need badly.

So adding high cost to watchlists will also make the defender pay more to check a 1 man corp like myself, which might be to expensive for small corps. So maybe there should be a recourse for the defender to be notified that watchlist capabilities have been bought.

It also means my ability to go after corps costs more but that i that is fair. Also… reduce the amount of wardecs people can declare so people can go after targets that is some sort of objective for the attacker. Even if it is just because you saw a 1 month char flying a nightmare.

(Salvos Rhoska) #44

Holy crap, :smiley:
Sempai noticed me!

On the part of corp-wide watchlist:

Ill think on it, but atm I cant think of a way to reconcile the cost so it doesnt disadvantage smaller vs larger corps even when the target would get “free” watchlist info on the initiator and/or notification their corp has been watchlisted, as equity.

Ill try to figure out a way and get back to you.

On the part of buying watchlist for individual character:

I think my Bounty based modifier works to rationalize cost, and imo, the target should not receive notification they have been watchlisted, nor receive watchlist on the purchaser.

Indirectly, this helps Bounty “matter”, at long last.

That returns to the issue of wardec, rather than watchlist.
As I said above, you are correct it would probably result in more “dedicated” wars, but on the otherhand, its hard to argue that someone should not be able to wardec as many corps as they want, provided they pay for it.

(Anderson Geten) #45

“consensus” is not truth. If people enjoy mining(for WHATEVER reason), the fact that you don’t - or that the majority of people don’t - does not prevent them from doing so.
I don’t like mining, but I find it more exciting than standing cloaked in a sabre on a gate for 2H or waiting for FC to tell us where to go and fighting TiDi for 5H.
(I’m talking about moon mining in NS of course).
Some people don’t expect instant orgasm when playing Eve Online, but social interaction, long-time goals, …

(Lugburz) #46

Best solution ive seen yet and also the best reason i can see why decs have changed so much; ive not been able to put my finger on it, just figured most people have moved on by now tbvh.

(Do Little) #47

In an asymmetric conflict, you win by not losing - denial of victory conditions is a legitimate and reasonably effective tactic.

A highsec industrial corporation may have absolutely no interest in fighting - if they did, they wouldn’t be in highsec. Alternatively they may be ALTS of players who have PVP toons in more dangerous regions of space. Last, but not least, you can always drop corp for a week and play in an NPC corporation. Participating in wars is, and should remain, entirely optional.

Unless, of course, you own a structure. Then you have skin in the game and can’t hide. An option discussed at the CSM summit was to require all parties at war to own structures - which I consider an excellent solution. Both aggressor and defender should have destructible assets in space. Casual, social and industry focused corps can always rent offices in NPC stations or public Citadels if they want to avoid wardecs.

(Lugburz) #48

So basically ive won every wardeck because they havent killed me? never thought of it that way before.

Some of the folks ive known over the years have disabilities, they want to be in a player corp for the smaller more tight knit community thing; to feel a part of something with a group of friends.

Probably the best solution though i think a limit on corp size may also play a role in that?

(Anderson Geten) #49

Depends, again, on what you consider as “winning”.
You have many way to define the victory terms, what’s more those are not settled in the game so obviously people will pick the term that shows them on the best way.
For one it will be killmails (because he killed 50 noobships), for the other the fact they didn’t undock to kill him, for another the fact he didn’t lose ships, etc.

The truth is, it is not competition, it is asymmetric PvP, so there is no “winning” side until both parts agree on a game and its ruleset ; otherwise the aggressor (who is the one starting the war) choses the terms of the fight in which he can only win (eg the number of ship killed if he only undocks when a easy prey is on sight)

See red vs blue …

The only absolute “winning” side is the one that makes his opponent stop the game. If you claim you are “winning” in Eve, that means you are killing eve(by making his players go away). In the end, that gets you closer to losing cause if you win against everybody else, you are alone, and there is no more game.

That’s why people claim Eve is full of sociopaths. People enjoy hurting themselves (not everybody though)

(Do Little) #50

Think Vietnam. America won every battle but lost the war.

(Lugburz) #51

my mind is going mental at that statement lmao

(Salvos Rhoska) #52

Here is my proposal:

Wardec vs Watchlist:

Wardec and Watchlist should remain separate.
Purchasing Wardec enables legal conflict.
Purchasing Watchlist enables, well, Watchlist.

You dont need to buy a Wardec to buy a Watchlist, or vice versa.

Reasons for this:

  • Not everyone that buys a Wardec, wants Watchlist.
  • Not everyone that buys Watchlist, wants Wardec.
  • It helps adjust costs for either, as separate, especially in regards to mass wardec vs mass watchlist purchases.
  • Helps mitigate against 1man alt corps buying Watchlist info for cheaper, and transferring data to Wardec purchasers.

Wardec mechanics:

  • Wardec max quantity scales with Corp member count.
    —1-10 man Corp has max 10 nominal wardecs.
    —10-100 man Corp has max 20 nominal wardecs.
    —Thereafter, for every 100 men in Corp, the max nominal wardec increases by 10.

Wardec costs:

  • All wardecs by Corps within the nominal max allotted above, cost as per usual.
  • All further wardecs bought beyond the nominal max (as above, dependent on member count), incur an additive 10% increase in cost.

Watchlist mechanics:

  • Individual character Watchlist:
    —Purchased through the Bounty interface.
    —Unlimited in number.
    —24hrs in duration.
    — Target is not informed, nor receives Watchlist on purchaser.
    — NPC Corp members cannot access this service.

  • Corp-wide Watchlist:
    —Purchased through Wardec interface (even if not currently at war)
    —Unlimited in number.
    —24hrs in duration
    —Targets are not informed of being watchlisted (largely to reduce spam mail)
    —Is individual per character, per purchase.
    —If character swaps Corp during this duration, they lose the Watchlist data.
    —NPC Corp member characters cannot access this service.

Watchlist costs:

  • Individual character Watchlist:
    —Cost is reduced scalar to the amount of Bounty on the target.
    —Cost will not drop below 1million isk.

  • Corp-wide Watchlist:
    —EVE calculates the difference between Watchlist purchaser’s Corp data and their target Corp data.
    — Such that the greater the difference, the less it costs for smaller Corp members vs larger Corps, and the more it costs for larger Corp members vs smaller Corps.

(Gadget Helmsdottir) #53

I’ll continue with this context in mind.

We need to make penalties for creating corps. We need to make penalties for leaving corps. We need to make penalties for joining corps. We need to make penalties for making corps. Corps should have more meaning.

What extra penalties would you add?

Creating/making a corp already has costs as described earlier. Would the prospective CEO need to pass some sort of test? Administered by who?

What penalty would you have for leaving a “crap” corp you found yourself in.
And if a player found herself stuck in one of those crap corps, would the player rather leave EvE than spend her donated time stuck in a corp she hates?

Um… got any numbers on this? I’d like to see the surveys - and I would seriously question your random sampling.

As for mining being boring… what music do you listen to? This isn’t a question about tastes, per se, because I’m fully aware that not everyone likes the same things. This is a question of when do you listen to different genres of music (assuming you do like different things).

I tend to listen to Classic Rock when driving, unless it’s a long distance drive, then I tend to listen to different things with a bit of tempo. I like what I’m listening to (or I wouldn’t be), and the music selected is to keep me awake, alert, and not be dangerously distracting.

At work, I sometimes listen to music when I’m not playing phone-tag or meeting-musical-chairs for extended periods. I generally listen to smooth jazz or Enya as it’s perfect for background music without being distracting. This is on a good day. If you can hear Dropkick Murphys through my office door… find another time to bring your problems to me :smile:. This is when I want to be distracted from whatever piece of work-place idiocy is gaining my ire.

Similarly, in EvE, I find mining soothing. I actually enjoy warping into a pristine belt and just removing it piece-by-piece. It’s soothing, not exciting. Excitement means that bad things are probably happening, and I take steps to mitigate the excitement - while I’m mining.

Outside of mining, I change music.

I played Celtic Punk or older Industrial (sad but, Trent Reznor will be Classic Rock before too long :cry:) when doing some RvB back in the day. When messing about in Provi patrols, I liked remixed Gregorian Chants.

In the end, perhaps the question is about tastes a bit. Whereas you find mining boring, I find it soothing.
More importantly, soothing enough to actually DO IT, and not be AFK. I will admit to sometimes reading other things while mining in EvE (I don’t watch anything else, but that may be just me), and my eyes are on my screen at all times - unless I take a risk and physically leave the keyboard for a short time (bio, drink, etc.).

I’m not going to project my way of thinking to countless others - especially without good numbers and proper surveys. I assume I’m not entirely alone, but I might just be some weird aberration that likes mining. Without this information, I would really like for people to cool it with the ‘Change the Thing I Don’t Do’ mentality. Offer a suggestion for something that you participate in by all means.

Meh, apparently it’s a jazz day at work today, as I just wrote a book called Music, EvE, and You. I’m sure by the end of the week, my door will be thumpin’ - idiocy tends to gravitate to Friday around these parts.

–Gadget Sails Away

(Salvos Rhoska) #54

Dafuq does music have to do with EVE?
Are you trying to derail?

(Gadget Helmsdottir) #55

Metaphor, Salvie.

–Gadget, when the walls fell

(Salvos Rhoska) #56

Completely useless and irrelevant.

Your music taste has nothing to do with Wardecs in EVE.

(Gadget Helmsdottir) #57

Nah. It’s apt.

– Gadget can skin cats in multiple ways

(Garresh) #58

Ugh. That’s an awful idea. I actually don’t see the wardec bloat as necessarily a problem. Or at least it requires a light touch not a slegehammer. Lazy wardeccers can be addressed by lazy solutions like a hauling alt or npc corp with a corp chat channel temporarily.

I mean, I actually agree with that sentiment. If you’re someone who doesn’t PvP at all, and you avoid getting ganked or killed, you’re winning hard at opportunity cost. Your primary income(and enjoyment) is gained by PvE interactions. So if you continue to have fun while blueballing hostiles, then you are winning in my book. I know a lot of types rag on that sort of thing, but I respect it personally. Unless they’re not logging in at all. If their response to war is tk not play I’m pretty sure they’re losing lol. Then again exploration in low and nullsec(before and after odyssey) was the only PvE I could stomach(except wspace pve), but I actually enjoyed it a lot. I still refuse to fly interceptors for exploration(is that still a thing for avoiding bubbles?) because to me PvEing in hostile terrority IS PvP. I’m like an MMO sadomasochist. Sometimes I want to be the guy ramming artillery up a carebears exhaust pipe. Sometimes I want to be running and dodging the gankers in a PvE ship. As long as there is significant risk of player interaction I’m having fun. It’s why I don’t PvE in high sec except under extreme circumstances, but will happily fly around outside highsec in a Cheetah, or an Astero. Prior to Odyssey, I had some a pilgrim for exploration, and a mwd-t1cloak typhoon and myrmidon(for complexes and escalations) I’d fly through lowsec planning routes to avoid hot spots and studying map activity to minimize risk. But I still lost them occasionally. Still made a profit though, so I had fun.

Pretty much, though I argue winning for many griefers isn’t necessarily to drive players away from the game. I make a point of arming my targets with information if they’re willing to listen. After all, we don’t want to overfish the waters. Need to let them reproduce and get fat so we can hunt them again. :joy:

I like the idea of that in theory. I’m not 100% on it though as this has potential to have unintended consequences. Still, I’m willing to entertain the notion.

Bounties tied to something gives me a weird feeling. Due to the oddity of how bounties work it could be an interesting system hampered by the mechanics. Are players purging bounties still a thing? I know for players who do lowsec pvp bounties don’t last very long. Going out and having a night of fun doing a solo roam sill clear out my bounty.

Actually it’s a bit disheartening, because I can’t hold on to my “cool points”(bounty) very long without losing them. Then again I haven’t had a bounty in years and I haven’t followed the changes closely. It does give me an interesting idea though…

  1. Lower the bounty claim rate 5%(I just did a search and it said 20%, correct me if wrong) so alt purging is incredibly inefficient.
  2. Bounties above 150 million provide free watchlisting for an individual, with infinite duration until they drop below 150 million.
  3. Players may set an option to receive alerts when players above a certain bounty threshold enters system. Probably 50 million.
  4. Players with an excessively high bounty AND who have received either [A. 1 or more gcc flags from activating concord in the last month, B. 3 or more kills in the last month of players outside of a duel or “approved” conflict, or C. being flagged suspect for theft 7 or more times in the last month] , may have killrights activated at any time, EVEN IF NO KILL RIGHTS EXIST. The base cost is 250 million, but this would scale inversely with bounty. Like if you have a bounty of 500 million the cost to activate is 250 million, but if you have a bounty of 2 billion it would only cost 50 million. The minimum cost would be 10 million if your bounty exceeds 10 billion. Corporations at war may mark their war as “consensual” and if both sides do this, kills on ships don’t count(I’m looking at you Red vs Blue).
  5. Whenever a bounty is claimed on a target where you placed a bounty, their portion of the kill may be increased to UP TO 35% of the kill value of the ship. This is done by the bounty interface and would be drawn exclusively from your portion of the bounty. The combined boost from this cannot exceed 35% of the kill so if someone else already boosted it to that you can’t add. This prompt is after the fact, so you can research the killer to see if he’s an alt. I realize this opens up potential for abuse, but said abuse would require either deception/scamming on the part of the bounty hunter, or stupidity of the person placing the bounty. And isn’t that what makes Eve great? Double agent bounty hunters could be a thing, sort of.
  6. Bounties may only be claimed on highsec kills, but include suicide ganking(the ganker still gets concorded). This way when they’re going to look for a fight in lowsec bounties don’t bleed away. Bounties also aren’t claimed from duels or “consensual” wardecs. Bounties are skewed towards nonconsensual PvP on the target.
  7. Bounties placed in corporations may be used for all of these features, but count towards 10% of the value for an individual player. So whatever prices for things, it would be 10x for corporation bounty. Player and corporation bounty stack(so corp bounty of 2 billion and player bounty of 150 million would cause an effective player bounty of 250 million). However, individual players must meet the separate requirements for kill right activation. So no awoxing a corp by joining and suicide ganking a bunch to make them vulnerable. But regular awoxing is still totally supported, and should be. Corporation Bounties may be withdrawn, so people cannot cycle corporations to dodge them.
  8. Bounties decay at a rate of 20% OR 100 million isk per month(whichever is higher) if the player has received no suspect flags, no GCC, and no kills outside of duels or mutual wars for that month.
  9. Factional warfare kills are all considered “mutual” and are completely legal, having no effect on this system. You can kill opposing militia with impunity. Likewise, kills in defensive wars(they attacked you), or wars you join defensively won’t count against you.

ADDITIONALLY, limited engagement and suspect timers are tweaked extensively.

  1. Suspect timers last 5 minutes for someone with no bounty and increase to 30 minutes at a bounty of 1 billion isk.
  2. Limited engagement timers for those who shoot players last 15 minutes normally, but can be reduced to 5 minutes for someone with a bounty of 500 million isk or higher(it would be a sliding scale until 500 mil is reached). So they have less time to refit and track targets.

The goal: Bounties have always been “cool points” for those who engage in nonconsensual PvP. Now they actually last a lot longer, and are much harder to get rid of. Those of us with low bounties have an easier time of things with our baiting games than the current system, while those with excessive bounties have a harder time under the current system. Basically repeat offenders are penalized. BUT those of us who offend repeatedly get a bunch of cool points so it balances out.

Dedicated bounty hunting becomes a profession. Because individual claims must be approved by the one who filed the bounty, nobody can just knock off 35% on every kill. I imagine a system where a player could give a carte blanch “approval” to an individual player or corporation allowing them to automatically claim 35% bounty on all kills from their pot for a week. No cost for this, the bounty is the cost.

This strikes me as a win for everyone. People who have been exploited can actually pay to make our lives significantly more difficult, which is a win for them. Said difficulties only really affect people who engage in regular PvP, so carebears who get a bounty don’t care, since the cost of a a personal watchlist is way lower. Plus it will decay to nothing quite rapidly because of their good behavior. People who enjoy PvP but want to be one of the “good guys” can now hunt down griefers on behalf of the bears.

Oh, and all these numbers will have logarithmic curves. Like 500 mil for 5 minute limited engagements, while only 50 mil for 10 minute engagements. Those who pay up the first part of the bounty get the biggest return on investment. Plus, even suicide gankers could have issues. You won’t see any benefit putting a bounty on the suicide ganker, but putting a bounty on his alt who scoops from suicide gank wrecks might lead to a killright activation.

I want a big epeen next to my portrait. Make Bounties great again.

(Salvos Rhoska) #59

In my system, Bounties are not purged at all.
The Bounty just reduces the cost of purchasing a Watchlist of 24hrs on that specific character.
It does not reduce the Bounty on them.

If they engage and destroy the target, then Bounty system operates as per normal.
The scalar cost I proposed for buying that Watchlist service will negate any profit earnable by the target self-mining their own bounty.

TLDR: In my system, there is no point to purchasing Watchlist on your own or a friends Bountied account, inorder to earn isk off it. You dont need to buy Watchlist to farm your alt/friend for Bounty (and you cant, profitably). It cannot be exploited for personal gain.

(Garresh) #60

I understand. That makes sense. I did a megapost on bounty changes. Consider my list as an addendum/addition to your changes. Basically why stop there? We can tie things like Suspect timers and limited engagements to it. We can do a ton to make this far reaching and a complete overhaul that allows defenders a means of “legal” retaliation against griefers. At the same time, low level griefers have a slightly easier time, while high level griefers have a really hard time under the new system. But the high level ones get a giant cool points epeen next to their picture.

(Salvos Rhoska) #61

Because we are not yet past this:

(Anderson Geten) #62

I think you misunderstood me.
I was speaking in a logical way, as “if you consider there may exist an absolute definition of winning, then this definition can only be the fact that your opponent leaves the game”. any other definition depends too heavily on the motives of the players involved.