We need another Hulkageddon

Roll back to pre-retribution so no more suspects. Can baiting made this game much more fun than the suspect idea. Many people quit when this patch hit anyway,perhaps its too ingrained in eve now.

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‘Suspect’ mechanics made it more dangerous. If people left because of this reason they were not very good i guess.

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you are incorrect…it was a vast change in the basic mechanics many wouldn’t accept…I stayed…but I knew many who thought it was like another game after. Drastic change has killed or hurt other mmo’s…
The tags made hek pointless as a hub as it was widely used as the only 0.5 hub. I remember averages there of 500-600 people at high times. I almost cried when I went there and didn’t have to scroll through local…

maybe you miss the effect suspect state has on new players. it’s totally understandable why old people would quit because of this. the short summary is, that combined with the security button it acts as deterrent for new players to engage and experiment activities which have been normal for a decade. for a decade!

reading through history gives quite the insights and was really, really interesting from a - hmmm - “political” perspective. ccp nerfed the extremely complex system of social interactions that made highsec by introducing these “features” not just to influence the current situation, but to influence the future state of highsec.

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Well… If you call plastic wraps on electrical sockets ‘deterrent to try new activities’… ?
Before security switchers “new players” met occasional CONCORD visit just by pressing button at the wrong moment. Now to get the same result they need to wear big boy panties (put SS to red).

Maybe there were people who really enjoyed to get killed by CONCORD “just because i pressed button” and it could make them look at “the dark side”… Anything is possible, i agree.

But i see security switchers as UI improvement. More useful than UI icons changing, replacing crosses with more complex crosses, or putting sign ‘omega’ on half of client interface.

Personally i’m looking at it from outside. Never been high-sec can baiter, never been baited on can (once my container was stolen because of my trust to strangers but that’s it). Stupidly lost 2 ships setting SS to red and mistaken targets in overview, getting CONCOROKKEN myself and having killrights on me… For me these changes are not much different than changing carriers from drones to fighters (i hated this idea and haven’t used carrier for long time, not i’m Ok with it and happily supercarrier rat - yes, i’m 1% of 1%). Or ending of nano-era. or lots of similar changes which drastically changed game environment.

when you start with a false equivalent, it’s really hard responding to your post. CONCORD has nothing to do with the suspect state deterrent, so i don’t see how that adds anything to what i said.

so let’s put this straight.

the sec button is a deterrent, meant to give new players the feeling that certain activities are “unlawful”, which automatically makes them reconsider these activities. “i have to deliberately change my state to do certain things and i am being warned about them, so i better not risk anything.”

the sec button reduces the amount of options for the new player, because it’s a psychological deterrent. it gives the feeling that certain things shouldn’t be done. it reduces the amount of social interactions. this works together with the second psychological deterrent: the suspect state. i’m repeating myself in hopes it helps getting the point across. ofc i cant make you consider this more in depth. who does that nowadays anyway, right?

where before new players could experiment in shenanigans, they now suffer from the consequence of being flaghed for 15min as kill-on-sight. a MASSIVE psychological deterrent. for a decade people could just run away, but nowadays the only option is to stay at a safespot or docked. again this means less options, which is bad.

fact: more options are always better than less options.
fact: deterrents are always used to deterr someone from certain activities.

the secbutton/suspect convo was a brilliant “political” move to influence the future new players by giving them the feeling that they have to behave lawfully, backwards to how the game actually works. someone has to specifically dare, which reduces the amount of new players simply “going for it” and is in complete opposite to hilmar’s story about how they were amazed that players came up with can flipping in the first place. quote: “we thought that was brilliant.”

you can see things from any perspective you want, but that doesnt change the underlying facts:

.) a deterrent is a deterrent
.) protecting people from their own mistakes breeds carelessness and stabs a culture that worked for a decade.
.) more options are always better than less options.

And to put the last nail into your rather misaligned post: suspect state equals 15min of kill-on-sight and, for a new player, is equivalent to getting concorded and being forced to wait out the timer. i deliberately ignore killrights, btw, which would also belong here, but i’m typing on a phone… meh.

the big point is that ccp nerfed social interactivity massively, sadly for good reasons, but not for the reasons you stated or most people have in mind.

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I respect your arguments BUT I WANT CAN BAITING BACK!!!

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In before: but you can still do that, you just have to suffer from completely inadequate consequences.

:roll_eyes:

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suspects wouldn’t exist in a can baiting environment…

hey, i’m just saying what some random geniusses would be saying. vOv

i agree with you about this. more options is always better than less options and the old can flipping, without the huge deterrents, offered way more possibilities than what we have now. especially for new players.

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I’m a big fan of suspect baiting. If you rally up some miners and present them a target, funny things happen when they decide to come back at you with their mission ships

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Well… putting it THIS way i can agree with you that this is deterrent for new players. For older ones it is not.

I don’t agree that suspect status is ‘completely inadequate consequences’ for ‘can baiting’ tho :grinning:

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I do miss can baiting.

couldn’t agree more

Never not open fire a week early.

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I’d say that the sec button was implemented so new players get a warning and are prevented from begging baited into committing acts that would bring a heavy consequence. Because let’s face it, if we could bait people to go suspect we totally would.
The changes in safeties and consequences removed unintuitive punishment. Now, once you go yellow or red you’re being warned there can be consequences. It doesn’t stop new players from getting themselves killed, but at least they can’t say they weren’t warned.
If players quit over these changes then I don’t really care. Adapt or die. If they can’t see that the net result was positive then good riddance.

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You’ve described one of its functions. The new players can not do certain things when the button is set to green. the initial response to such a button is that “there’s a reason why these things aren’t allowed”. Changing the button to yellow gives you a warning andenables you to do minor shenanigans. It also puts you into a position, where you will have to suffer from a state which forces you to stay docked or constantly get vaporized. For a new player, suspect state equals GCC, because going outside means inevitable death.

See it from a more historical perspective, as i do. A whole culture built around can-baiting flourished for over a decade. *I am not exaggerating this. A culture built upon new players trying something which ccp once called “brilliant”! The very first theft has a tremendous impact on the person committing the act. Remember that most people don’t steal, but in the game it was perfectly okay to do so, with adequate consequences. And the adrenaline rush of simply thinking about doing it is well worth a mentioning as well!

Such changes affect far more things than could be considered only by looking at one or two details. To fully see the effects, one has to take into account all of EVE’s history and not just minor details it affects superficially. Even if one does that, would that not even change anything about the deterring nature counter to EVE’s own: Dare, so you can win; Learn, so you stop losing

Even if he ignores all deterrents, he will find out that the consequence of his simple theft ends with zero gameplay due to the 15min suspect timer. His options boil down to: constantly exploding, staying docked, a safespot, and logging off! And while that’s fine for an older player, it’s completely wacko for a new player.

Combine all deterrents with the consequences and ignore the reasoning. There is zero evidence that a suspect state and security button impacts the game positively. On the contrary, history shows that these features will only lead to a cultural shift away from a cut-throat environment. And you already know where it shift to! It shifts towards the :whale2:.

I don’t know how to better communicate what horrendous long-term consequences these “features” actually brought and how it literally destroyed a culture which has flourished for over a decade.

  • Every time a suspect noob dies, Bob kills a kitten. -

Please, join me in thinking of the kitten. …
image

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Hmm. I actually see what you mean as to how it affects prospective newbro criminals. I’ll have to think more on it. I will say though I rally think people looking to get involved in such nefarious activities are more likely to look into how the mechanics work and ask other criminals meaningful questions.

You mean the new feature that holds one responsible for what they do for 15 mins(cruel hug) and makes them pick their targets better? I like this feature, that keeps them in space long long enough that the victim may have a chance to hunt down the coward that would normally hide in a station and reship… If they were inclined to get a lil payback.

It’s funny, I would love to catch someone that just handed me and pop their pod just to see they spent 50 or a hundred mill on fire power implants. That would be funny. I think it would be fair to have the chance to catch someone after they have been concorded for ganking. After all they may have just cost me a 250m ship and 50mill-bill in implants. They did their worst, I a miner should be given the chance to kick them back.

Yeah, The first thing I’d do if I hurt someone that might come back when better prepared, is go hide from the angry mob with torches and pitchforks in the police station where I’m nice and safe from the justice friends.

At the very least they would be cost something, if it’s just the 15 mins time they hide for the timer to count down. If the ganker was smart, they could just set auto pilot to warp to all the planets in a circle till the timer ran out then docks up and tears. .

One ganks and hides in a station is completely bull crap. A miner makes their choices to mine in an in protected ship, who am I to stop them, but at least they would have their chance to feel better about the experience.

[quote=“Kathern_Aurilen, post:30, topic:6413”]
It’s funny, I would love to catch someone that just handed me and pop their pod just to see they spent 50 or a hundred mill on fire power implants. That would be funny. I think it would be fair to have the chance to catch someone after they have been concorded for ganking. After all they may have just cost me a 250m ship and 50mill-bill in implants. They did their worst, I a miner should be given the chance to kick them back. [/quote]You do. If someone commits a criminal act against you in highsec (and lowsec too for that matter) you earn a kill right. You can go shoot them any time you want for the next 30 days and turn the CONCORD response off. You can also trade or sell that kill right to someone else if you want.

Further, the career criminals are free-to-shoot all the time. You don’t need a kill right at all to shoot. Heck, you don’t even need a very powerful combat ship. If you just manage to tackle them with a warp scrambler or disrupter, the NPC faction police will show up in short order and explode them for you.

This game gives you the chance for revenge, but it will not play the game for you. If you want to hunt criminals you can, but you will have to put in some effort as any other player who hunts another player in this game.

[quote=“Kathern_Aurilen, post:30, topic:6413”]
At the very least they would be cost something, if it’s just the 15 mins time they hide for the timer to count down. If the ganker was smart, they could just set auto pilot to warp to all the planets in a circle till the timer ran out then docks up and tears. . [/quote]There is a cost - they lose both their ship and security status. Plus you earn a kill right on them. Imposing a cost on players for aggression is literally the whole point of CONCORD.

As for the autopilot warping you from planet to planet, I think you should take a refresher course on how that feature works. But regardless of this, I don’t think you will find shooting a ganker’s empty pod a very satisfying experience.

[quote=“Kathern_Aurilen, post:30, topic:6413”]
One ganks and hides in a station is completely bull crap. A miner makes their choices to mine in an in protected ship, who am I to stop them, but at least they would have their chance to feel better about the experience.
[/quote]A miner is generating resources into our shared universe. Therefore they need to be at risk while doing so. Every bit of ore that miner mines makes mine less valuable. Resource generation is the carrot that induces us to put ourselves at risk to the other players.

Piracy does nothing of the sort. At best the criminal might take some resources from another player, but the net effect of this interaction will be a net loss of virtual items in the universe. Some loss always occurs and our shared economy is better for an attempt at piracy whether the pirate succeeds or fails.

I think all you need to feel better about criminality in this game is to adjust your mindset a little. You don’t need to explode pirates to feel better about yourself. You just need to realize that everytime you avoid the pirates, you win, whether that is because you trick them, our-tank them, evade them, or explode them. As long as you get your ore safely to station, you have beaten the criminals and the details don’t matter. The rabbit doesn’t beat the wolf by storming the wolf’s den with a machine gun and murdering the wolf pack. The rabbit wins by dashing into its burrow, or not being seen in the first place, munching that carrot and laughing at the failed attempts of the predator to catch them.

But if you want to be a wolf, there is nothing stopping you. Get a combat ship and stalk the gankers and pounce when you see your opportunity.

Now as to the OP, highsec is in some of the best shape it’s been in a while. Non-compliant mining of all sorts, including AFK mining is way down, as is bad behaviour like auto-piloting. Invulnerable highsec industrial POSes are weeks away from stopping being a thing, and in general highsec residents are of a better calibre than say, five years ago, and more accepting of emergent game play. There is much more work to be done of course, but I think nullsec is much more of concern these days now that highsec has caretakers keeping things in order.

But content is content and if someone wants to organize a dedicated campaign of destruction in highsec then have at it. Given the stagnation in nullsec, it may be soon be a expeditious way to generate content and spend some of that excess of riches. How many Catalysts-worth of resources can a Rorqual mine in a hour anyway?

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