Fun story. Now explain how a small mistake, where a player is in team based competition but finds themselves against 5 players on the other side who are alive, isn’t exactly the same except it started from a position where skill separated the two groups at the beginning? These “imagine” scenarios are silly decorative tales people talk about when the reality of day to day play in the universe for a new player is an experienced vet waiting for who knows what purpose to pop new payer ships as they jump or go about mining etc. There’s no skill involved on either side. Just a hawk eating a mouse, while hawks try to regale mice about the way that a mouse, if they tried hard enough, could one day fight off five hawks.
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This doesn’t hold up either. I’m old as dirt. I like games that are difficult. Games that have some meat to them. I like having things to work towards year after year. I don’t enjoy babysitting kids or adults in a state of arrested development. Not to mention, as far as I can tell, kids playing these days are at least as focused on their games of choice as I was when young. They put in the hours. Some to be streamers, silly, but some because games have just gotten so very good in general. So much so we dump on games that would have been mindblowing 15 yrs ago in nearly every way including graphics.
There’s nothing “real gamer” or “enjoys a deep game” special about EVE players. Just your usual difference in taste and tolerance, the same as those who love any other niche title.
To each his own I guess. I don’t understand the appeal of games like PubG or Fortnite, while others don’t understand the appeal of EVE…
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Because the teams started fair. A game without that structure has all of the same potential for a 5v5 to become a 5v1 on the battlefield, but also has the potential for it to become a 15v5 because one side brought reinforcements instead of having a fair fight. Wining in a game where the other side has more options for killing you will always be harder than one where they are limited to “fair” matches.
Just a hawk eating a mouse, while hawks try to regale mice about the way that a mouse, if they tried hard enough, could one day fight off five hawks.
Then perhaps farmer trash should stop telling new players that they are mice. What if, instead of being helpless perma-victims, the newer players decided to coordinate their efforts and turn five hawks vs. one mouse into a thousand mice vs. five hawks? In the absence of structure it’s up to you to take the initiative and turn the fight into one you can win (or escape from it), skill sorts it out from there.
I can’t stand those games either btw. 
I so do not get it at all. I thought Fortnite was at its best before it had a Royale mode at all. My favorite games right now are… RDR2 (including online), Star Citizen, Elite: Dangerous. Satisfactory gets an honorary mention.
If you start playing a game you don’t like the idea of, why continue to play it? EVE IS a PVP sandbox, with added PVE. If you don’t like that basic concept why keep playing? And more importantly, why be so egocentric as to want to change a game you don’t like in to something you DO like if that means the people who DID start playing for the “right” reasons then have their game changed?
I never got this. Start playing WOW and then go “this game should be turn based, I don’t like non-tun based game” but continue to play for for YEARS while raging on the forums about how the game would just be better if it was changed to be turn based.
It’s stupidity and self centeredness all in one go.
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Naww, there’s a reason we watch championships based on structured rules instead of just say, handing 50 guys a basketball and telling them to go at it. “Farmer trash should stop telling new players they are mice” - Yeah, I can see why we’re not going to see eye to eye. I mean, this fantasy land where 5 new players find each other, learn enough about the game to figure out what to do, and fight back against a threat that doesn’t just run off like the cowards they are in the first place is just that… a fantasy. Those 5 new players just… find a new game.
And that’s ok. Not every game needs to have millions of players. That’s what I’m saying - It’s ok to be niche and like it. There are places you can go and pay someone to club you in the junk for an hour. It’s not my cup of tea, but I’d never propose they change their service offerings or shut down.
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Dude - I’ve said it maybe 15 times in the last 15 posts. I don’t want to change EVE. I enjoy open world PvP games. But they’re niche. They’ll stay niche depending on how the open world PvP is handled. Every game I enjoy right now except 1 is an open world PvP game.
Stop moving the goalposts. Whether or not an event is interesting for a spectator is entirely separate from the level of skill required from the players.
Yeah, I can see why we’re not going to see eye to eye. I mean, this fantasy land where 5 new players find each other, learn enough about the game to figure out what to do, and fight back against a threat that doesn’t just run off like the cowards they are in the first place is just that… a fantasy. Those 5 new players just… find a new game.
Yes, that is exactly how it works. People who are weak and want menial PvE farming without any adversity discover that EVE is not the game for them and they leave. People who belong in EVE do exactly the organization you described: they look up how the game works, find ways to coordinate with other players, and start winning.
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The difference is that in a game with structured PvP there is far less room for deception, misjudging the situation, being lazy and letting your guard down while you don’t pay attention to your surroundings etc. It’s not as simple of a comparison as you make it sound. The actual combat skill isn’t what makes you good at PvP, there are many many other factors that do that make it more like a strategy game than a twitch combat game. If you don’t understand that you will always suck at EVE.
There is simply no other game that perfected this form of gameplay like EVE did. It does not try to be this other games, it has a unique gameplay that is completely valid and excellent on it’s own.
If they had made yet another of this structured PvP instead we would have yet another title in a fing see of already existing similar games, most of which failed, but not have this great game some people enjoy for it being different over the other generic shite.
The events are interesting because we know it’s where the best skill exists. They’re not interesting because they have rules. Randomly attacking new players in poorly equipped ships isn’t skill. It’s often not even rewarding in any way within the game. It’s feeding something else. The less structure, the more luck, the less skill matters and preparation matters more.
And you’re right. The people who belong in EVE do those things. The people who don’t aren’t “farmer trash”, they just aren’t interested in participating in challenges which largely end up being just figuring out who can join the larger gang to actually AVOID the very things these tough guys like yourself say it’s weak to avoid. Their solution is different - They move on. Yours is different - You dig in and figure out how to be the hawk, not the mouse.
Grats! EVE is for you. You’re part of a niche cohort. That’s ok.
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Let me break down this conversation for you.
Someone mentions that it’s weird that regular customers of this donut shop are fat.
I come in and make a remark that this makes sense, because people who frequent donut shops probably have a weight issue, and donuts contribute to weight issues to boot.
A dozen people come in telling me that donuts are sweet and I’m a moron for saying they’re salty and if they wanted salty foods they’d go get a bag of chips and why don’t I understand Dunkin’ Donuts sells donuts, not chips.
I get what EVE is. I get what makes it different. I’m just saying, it also makes it niche. That’s it.
Donuts are delicious. Chips are delicious. They’re different. Chips can’t replace donuts, donuts can’t replace chips.
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Let me break down this conversation for you.
You come in and say it’s weird that this gourmand restaurant has so few customers. The MacDonalds and Dunkin’ Donats shop over the streets are proven to be more successful because they are more popular with the masses.
If only CCP had made another burger shop, it would be so much more mainstream and profitable. All that gourmet food is just niche and for old people.
See, I can make stupid metaphors as well.
If you don’t like the food here, go eat some burger somewhere else. You have all the options
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Except, I didn’t say they should make a different kind of shop. I said it’s a mistake every space game makes the same shop. Because so much vision gets lost due to the game remaining niche. So many of those restaurants close entirely or never reach their full vision. In fact I said making EVE like other games may have caused EVE to fail, because you have to hit a pretty high bar of quality on the other features to make it work and maybe the cut throat nature of PvP here saved the game.
It’s a pretty spot on metaphor you used as well, except the part where you put words in my mouth I didn’t say.
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What? There are tons of space games that have structured combat. In fact even CCP produced one. It failed.
Let’s get Anderson, Balos, and Naarian in here!
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There are no MMOish space games without open world PvP at the core of the game. At least none I’ve heard about. Even Starbase is headed down the open world PvP route. Boggles my mind.
Star Trek Online, Elite Dangerous, Not sure about No Man’s Sky and Star Citizen.
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STO I haven’t tried. May be worth a look, though I’m always wary of licensed IP MMOs with poor visuals. Get that MTX economy vibe.
Elite Dangerous does have private servers, but the core of the game is Open and Open is the same kind of open world PvP as exists here. Less structure even.
No Man’s Sky isn’t really an MMOish game. I never saw another player in the entire time I played. I can’t even say if it has PvP because I never saw another P.
Star Citizen is also open world PvP (and I enjoy it, it’s my go-to Space Sim atm, with breaks to E:Dangerous now and then just to gather engineering mats or whatever else is on my mind).
The thing is that none of this games will ever have the deep living and breathing universe EVE does. For that to exist the open world PvP nature is a must. It is the driving force behind the whole game. Without it, even all the PvE and mining would be completely meaningless. As it is they are part of an extremely complex machinery that is the open world PvP sandbox.
There is no other game out there that has built anything even remotely what EVE does and there is a good reason for that.