Why didnt u sell on top? 📉

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Arkhis

i can choose which system to interact with.

Oh really? How exactly do you do that when you don’t choose which system the business you’re buying something from uses?

bitcoin is not under any jurisdiction.

The various laws regulating bitcoin would disagree with this claim.

making it illegal to accept bitcoin is not going to make my bitcoin disappear and is not going to prevent me from transacting in bitcoin.

It absolutely will do those things. Who are you going to transact with if bitcoin is illegal? Who is going to risk prison time to deal in illegal bitcoin, except for the drug dealers/child abusers/etc who are already committing serious felonies and don’t care about a few more?

while with any other currency government can just make it disappear on a whim. you’re blind if you don’t recognize this distinction.

And you’re blind if you think that this would ever happen (no government is that suicidal, except maybe North Korea) or that governments can’t do the same to bitcoin.

so i very much consider non-debasable currency a good thing.

Then you don’t understand economics.

here’s the relevant bit

But that’s not at all relevant unless you’re a libertarian cultist who thinks that “RAAAR FIAT CURRENCY” is a compelling argument. I don’t care if my money “exists” in some abstract philosophical sense, for all practical purposes it exists and I can use it. And for all practical purposes my conventional banking system is superior to bitcoin.

(Also, I don’t think you understand how credit cards work. Paying with a credit card means paying with the bank’s money, not mine. If they want to make my credit card cease to exist I’m perfectly fine with that.)

[Karak_Terrel]

@Adunh_Slavy

Those things which are the most easy to trade, most often become money.

Bitcoin with the Lightning Network is just that.

@Adunh_Slavy

The second trait is utility. What is its use other than as a money?

What other use has fiat money? Toilet paper?

@Adunh_Slavy

BitCoin it self has no utility. Block Chain however has immense utility.

Bitcoin is the most secure store of value there is. It is secured by gigantic amounts of energy. This in itself has a lot of utility. It can for example be used by Lightning as a security to create a payment system. It can be used for all sorts of applications where you need to anchor a prove with high security. No other network can do that with this degree of security and decentrallization, that is why Bitcoin will always be unique.

Blockchain technology in itself is extremely limited. It has some horrible drawbacks that limit it’s usability (blockchain trilemma). Bitcoin purposely chose maximum security and decentralization at the cost of scalability to provide a secure and decentralized core everyone can equally afford to have the same level of access and control over. This can then again be used to build on with technologies that are not limited to what blockchains can do.

I know there are a lot of projects out there that claim to be “the next Botcoin” and they parrot the “blockchain not Bitcoin” mindset. They may find their own niche to drive, but they will have to make different trade-offs to get different results and they will not challenge the unique place Bitcoin has, they simply can’t. The way it was launched and spread and became the dominant PoW network simply can’t be replicated, it is probably a once per species event.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Merin_Ryskin

Are you aware of the fact that the government can easily ban bitcoin and make it worthless?

That’s right.

My grandfather remembered when the government banned alcohol and it became worthless and vanished…

My mother still remembers when they banned marijuana and made it worthless and then it vanished.

The government…more powerful than Emperor Palpatine.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Karak_Terrel

Bitcoin is the most secure store of value there is. It is secured by gigantic amounts of energy.

And once again you fail to understand what “secured” means. Spending a lot of energy does not secure value. If the market collectively decided that bitcoins were worth $1 each that would be their value no matter how much energy it takes to increment the blockchain.

Bitcoin’s infrastructure is secured by the immense energy required to break it, but that’s not in any way the same thing as its value being secured. And that security is purchased at an obscenely high cost, making bitcoin non-competitive with conventional payment systems.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Renly_Rohan

That’s right.

It is right. It’s also right that you’re a complete idiot if you think that alcohol and currency function the same way.

[Adunh_Slavy]

@Arkhis

what’s your preferred definition of money?

The five commonly taught are: Portable, Durable, Divisible, Stable (value), Recognizable.
The less commonly taught are: trade-ability, and: its utility - the thing that made it useful in the first place before it was ‘money’.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Merin_Ryskin

if you think that alcohol and currency function the same way.

I don’t.

But black markets are black markets and governments have a history of being useless in stopping them, even on the internet. That’s why they went crazy on Ross Albrecht…to try and sow fear to get control.

[Nana_Skalski]

@Arkhis

nobody can stop me spending my bitcoin

Where do I have to go to take credit in bitcoin?

Actual cryptocurrency that someone would lend me?

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Renly_Rohan

But black markets are black markets and governments have a history of being useless in stopping them, even on the internet.

A currency that is only useful for buying illegal stuff on the black market might technically still exist but it won’t be anything like the bitcoin fanboy dreams. Say goodbye to mainstream use of bitcoin in stores, being able to trade bitcoin on currency exchanges, etc. A handful of drug dealers/child abusers/etc will use it and everyone else will avoid it like the plague.

[Arkhis]

How exactly do you do that when you don’t choose which system the business you’re buying something from uses?

multiple ways: i pick a business which accepts bitcoin, i pick an exchange which allows me to convert to local currency or i move to a place less oppressive, because remember: all i need to carrry all my assets is memorizing 12 words, i don’t have to fear that oppressive government will not let me move all the native currency to another place or something like that.

various laws regulating bitcoin would disagree with this claim

these laws don’t regulate bitcoin, they regulate how local institutions and businesses should interact with bitcoin.

Who are you going to transact with if bitcoin is illegal

that is a BIG “if”, but i’m going to: a) convert bitcoin to local currency where possible; b) move to a place where it isn’t illegal; c) if it’s illegal everywhere and governments are actively destroying exchanges - we’re living in some parallel nazi reality and i’m joining a rebellion.

you’re blind if you think that this would ever happen (no government is that suicidal, except maybe North Korea) or that governments can’t do the same to bitcoin

you know, before arguing this passionately, maybe learn a bit of history? surely by this time any person on planet has heard of currency collapse in zimbabwe? ever heard of a country called Venezuela? read about financial crash in Germany in 1930s? know what happened to people’s saving in exUSSR after collapse? or countless stories of how people’s bank records are wiped because local government decided that had to be done for whatever reason?

boggles my mind somebody would actually think currency collapses didn’t happen for variety of reasons, ONE OF WHICH is country defaulting on it’s debts which effectively decimates the value of their currency.

also you would have to explain the mechanics of how can government make my bitcoin disappear. stating it with confidence unfortunately is not enough, especially considering your “knowledge” on the topic, you’ve demonstrated so far.

I don’t care if my money “exists” in some abstract philosophical sense

oh but you do care very much about abstract philosophical “inherent value” of money, don’t you? hypocrisy much?

for all practical purposes it exists and I can use it. And for all practical purposes my conventional banking system is superior to bitcoin.

until it isn’t. of which even recent history has so many accounts there’s a special wikipedia category about it: Category:Modern obsolete currencies - Wikipedia

[Adunh_Slavy]

@Karak_Terrel

Bitcoin with the Lightning Network is just that.

I can’t trade bitcoin for apples and oranges at the local market.

@Karak_Terrel

What other use has fiat money? Toilet paper?

Someday, they all fail sooner or later. This is the great trick that central banks have played upon everyone. Paper currencies used to be backed by something, gold and silver mostly. Then when widely accepted as a substitute, they broke the link. There are still many people who believe that money is backed by something, surprisingly. I suppose in a way they are, our being indentured to the debt that current paper money represents.

@Karak_Terrel

Bitcoin is the most secure store of value there is.

Not with its track record of volatility and only 10 years or so of existence.

The rest is just code that can be replicated, and thus not unique; not a something that BitCoin can claim unto it self.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Merin_Ryskin

A currency that is only useful for buying illegal stuff on the black market might technically still exist but it won’t be anything like what the bitcoin fanboy dreams.

As Leia said to Moff Tarkin: "The more you tighten your grip the more star systems will slip through your fingers. "

Ham fisted attempts to kill bitcoin could very well not go as you might think.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Arkhis

i pick a business which accepts bitcoin

Which currently is almost none.

i pick an exchange which allows me to convert to local currency

Congratulations, now you’re right back in the financial system you claim to be independent of.

all i need to carrry all my assets is memorizing 12 words

That’s nice. Do those 12 words grant you immigration status and allow you to work in your new destination? Do they make you immune to extradition treaties? Do they do anything that a suitcase of gold bricks won’t already do?

these laws don’t regulate bitcoin, they regulate how local institutions and businesses should interact with bitcoin.

Irrelevant nitpicking, the end result is the same.

a) convert bitcoin to local currency where possible

It won’t be possible. Because guess what: if bitcoin is illegal no bank is going to deal with it.

maybe learn a bit of history?

I do know history, and those currency collapses are not the only scenario where money supply increases. And you can have the opposite problem, where currency increases too much in value and disrupts the economy.

also you would have to explain the mechanics of how can government make my bitcoin disappear

“Hand over your bitcoin wallet keys or we execute your family.”

oh but you do care very much about abstract philosophical “inherent value” of money, don’t you?

Nope. I care about the practical value of what I can do with my money. I don’t care one bit about philosophical questions of whether it “exists” as long as I can buy stuff with it.

[Arkhis]

bitcoin is: portable, durable, divisible and recognizable (getting better by the day). it’s also fairly traceable (more than cash is) and i can’t figure out what “it’s utility” means. the only property it doesn’t properly posess yet is stability, which is not unusual for a novel financial instrument that is still in price discovery phase, but then plenty of other fiat currencies aren’t very stable either, yet we call them money. so why is bitcoin not money?

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Renly_Rohan

Ham fisted attempts to kill bitcoin could very well not go as you might think.

What are you going to do, buy a bunch of pot on the internet in protest? The reality is that if bitcoin disappeared tomorrow nothing of value would be lost. The people who gambled on the market would lose money and the rest of the world would move on.

[Adunh_Slavy]

@Merin_Ryskin

“Hand over your bitcoin wallet keys or we execute your family.”

Humans: Been there, done that. Will do it again.

[Adunh_Slavy]

@Arkhis

so why is bitcoin not money?

• portable - Yep
• durable - Sort of. People loose passwords all all the time. A usb stick is no more durable than paper, so on par there.
• divisible - Yep
• recognizable - Getting there, not there yet.

traceable … I’m not sure that is a good thing if we wish to escape government enforced monopolies.

Trade-ability - Which you did not mention - It’s not there. As some previous posters have said, “I’ll go to the bitcoin exchange (aka bitcoin atm) and convert it to local currency” - the fact you have to convert exposes its non trade-ability.

Utility … what can you use it for other than as a medium of exchange? For instance, anyone who has seen a prison movie may have noticed the inmates playing poker for cigarettes. Cigs, in that environment, are a form of money because they have a use.

It’s not stable, at all. Maybe some day, but not today.

[Karak_Terrel]

@Adunh_Slavy

I can’t trade bitcoin for apples and oranges at the local market.

Well I can’t yet either. But I can buy apples and oranges with Bitcoin when I order them over the internet today. It’s a matter of time until I can use it in the local shop. They already have a gazillion different payment system and the company that aggregates them here is already looking into integrating lightning.

@Adunh_Slavy

Not with its track record of volatility and only 10 years or so of existence.

Yes, I guess things in the shop will not be denominated in bitcoin for a while. But there are already things that are, like for example in crypto it is the lead currency and all other coins and tokens are usually denominated in Bitcoin.

But yes this is obviously a valid point.

In my opinion and also that of a lot of analysts, the reason for the high volatility is because we are still growing the marketcap to where it actually will represent the the value of all the markets, which would be a couple hundert trillions… take from that what you want… fact is the volatility is already significantly reduced and will continue to decline. If it stays on the same trajectory it will decline under the volatility of fiat within the next 13 years.

@Adunh_Slavy

The rest is just code that can be replicated, and thus not unique; not a something that BitCoin can claim unto it self.

Bitcoin is a network of people using the same software and agreeing to the same rules. It’s not a just a software. It’s like saying “the internet is just some routers and computers and not unique”, sure, you can build your own “internet”, and then claim it’s superior because you don’t have any IP address shortages.

This is highly dependent on network effects. And it is really really similar to the internet. I’m sure there are a lot of network protocols that are superior, hell even the internet protocol itself has a new version (ipv6) and tries to push for what basically amount to a hard fork for what? 20 years?

Now I don’t say other crypto is useless. There are obviously other use cases. Bitcoin is pretty specific, it makes some trade-offs that make it uniquely qualified as store of value. Ethereum for example makes a whole lot of other trade-offs and enables other things with it. It has turring complete smart contracts which enable a ton of things bitcoin can’t do, at the same time it sacrifices security because that introduces complexity. I’m sure there are other examples.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Karak_Terrel

which would be a couple hundert trillions

This is utter raving lunacy. “A couple hundred trillion” is more than the value of the entire world economy FFS.

[Adunh_Slavy]

@Karak_Terrel

It’s a matter of time until I can use it in the local shop

Maybe, Maybe not. No one knows the future. We do know the past however, and we do have history that shows us how governments and bankers behave when their monopolies are challenged. They are, as stated before, most likely going to relegate cryptos to an asset class they can tax.

@Karak_Terrel

which would be a couple hundert trillions

Perhaps it will, no one knows the future. The Liner Regression line for BitCoin shows it is over valued currently based on its history. Granted it is purely mathematical and can’t take into account subjective value. It is a mean reverting study, if it dips below the LR, it may be worth adding to that position, but not until then. Buy low, sell high.

@Karak_Terrel

Bitcoin is a network of people using the same software and agreeing to the same rules.

@Karak_Terrel

This is highly dependent on network effects.

Just quoting a small portion of the three paragraphs for brevity sake. - Yep, you’re right. All these people agreeing to use “BitCoin” as opposed to “SomeOtherCoin” for doing the same exact thing is there. This contributes to “trade-ability” … It would seem my term trade-ability and your use of “network effects” mean roughly the same thing.

The difference is, my use applies to all peoples and all things world wide, where your use is specific to the crypto/block-chain world … yes?