You’re aware that ECCM is not a guarantee?
Also you need 1 Web (slow 100MN boat), 1 point (stop warp), AB (so you can speed/sig tank rats), MWD (so you can reach the ratter before you switch to AB).
That’s four mid slots.
You need a solid armor tank to hold the rats and the ratter.
How many armor boats have 5 mid slots?
Even if they did…ECCM is not a guarantee.
Another deliberately obtuse pro bot postl because I know YOU KNOW better.
It’s not about fitting ECCM to increase the odds of not getting locked out of the action. It’s about a chance to be unable to do anything looming. While you can play around and mitigate effects of other EWAR, ECM is just binary.
With how NPCs prioritize targets, that’s a free safety net. There have been attempts before to make being in space be appropriately dangerous (like OGBs, ore signatures moved to anomalies etc.), so this Guristas affair is certainly a contradiction to other decisions prior.
That does not surprise me, isn’t using a tackle module near rats a good method to grab back aggro when they’re shooting your drones? I think EWAR is high on the list of aggro-actions for those rats, together with remote reps.
Rat aggro mechanics combined with rats using ECM, I can see how it’s nearly impossible to solo kill ratting ships in such a situation.
Would be nice if CCP did something about this, either lower tackling on the aggro priority of rats, or stop them from using ECM. It would be a shame if rats continued to keep the ratters safe.
Nobody would ever abuse that, right? 
Gentleman, I have discovered the secret to killing ratters in Gurista space.
You will need the following:
3 accounts, 5 ships.
First Account:
50MN suicide eris.
Vengeance (1MN + scram + cap booster with navy 50’s to run a bling armor rep). You will also need two vamps to keep your other mods running. Active ratters usually have a neut or even neut drones (don’t try to tackle my ratting Sacrilege).
Second Account:
1 Pilgrim (to get your panther in system).
1 Panther with 2 sebos using ECCM scriptsand webbing drones (because you’ll still get jammed on occasion). The Pilgrim/Panther combo also makes response fleets too afraid to save their friend. They don’t know what else you may be dropping (even though you got nothing!). When the kill can finally be secured, you will withdraw your heavy web drones and use 5x Infil drones since shield tankers suffer in EM.
Third Account:
PvP fit Ishtar (with web and scram) + 2nos. to keep your tank running. The rats will switch between you and the Panther. The Ratter himself will be shooting your Vengenace.
You must use an Ishtar because this is the only source of reliable damage when jammed. Your other high slots with be neuts, which you will perma cycle Two small neuts = 1 medium neut. When the panther gets jammed you can run these two small neuts. Your Ishtar should have 3 sets of heavy drones: Webbers, Wasps, Praetors. Use the Praetors first against shield tanks.
You can perma run your small neuts in this build and your armor tank. This is important because we don’t want to switch windows back to our Ishtar (other than to change damage type). Also dont’ forget to reapply neuts/vamps after you unjammed. I kept forgetting this and it made the kill take quite long.
The Panther can keep one medium neut running. Eventually the shield tanker will cap out (this is when you can remove your web drones, since he can’t run his prop mod anymore).
With your vengeance use different rockets on him. Whichever rocket does the most damage is his actual hole. In this particular case the Tengu had a a large EM hole and was absurdly gurista tanked. I forgot to bring amarr drones for my ishtar though!
Your main focus (window) should be the vengeance (except when it also gets jammed). You must manually fly this little frigate to never lose your point.
The rats will not jam the Panther, Ishtar and Vengeance all at once (remember that your Ishtar has the only real web, and we’re using web drones from the panther to cover the Ishtar when the Ishtar gets jammed.).
So let’s recap:
Step 1: Cyno your panther in. Let the enemy THINK you can have BLOP fleet somewhere they can’t see. This will discourage blob responses. Log out your Panther near the site.
Step 2a: Eject from your Vengeance at a celestial 15AU away.
Step 2b: Get in your 50 MN Eris and warp to the site. Since you won’t live long, pre-overheat the 50MN.
Step 2c: Log on your Panther/Ishtar.
Step 3a: As soon as the Eris is 30km out from ratter, switch your windows fast and warp to it with Panther/Ishtar.
Step 3b: Switch back to Eris window and bubble and scram.
Step 4a: If the Eris is still alive, do not drop another bubble, can you trap your pod (since death at any time is likely). Warp to your vengeance as soon as Ishtar/Panther have tackle… Eject from Eris and commandeer your vengeance and warp back to your Ishtar.
Step 4b: Don’t forget to manage your Panther/Ishtar windows during this ship swap. Use the “Keep distance” function 1000m while window swithcing. Keep your nos’s on with armor reps. Don’t forget to active your armor mods.
Step 5: Get the true tackle on the ratter with your vengeance. The vengeance will know when the ratter is capped out since his small vamps won’t return energy.
Step 6: Withdraw the heavy web drones on panther and switch to your Infils.
Step 7: Loot.
That wasn’t so hard was it guys?
NOTE: Although you dont’ have to use a Pilgrim for BLOPS, making them think you have a possible titan bridge is also a huge deterrent to a blob response.
TIP: If watch you own ships on overview (from vengeance account) you can see whether or not they’re falling behind (sort by distance on friendly tab), and is usually better than window switching.
The panther kept falling behind due to acceleration. Also watch your Ishtar drones. The rats shoot them. I actually had zero damage on the Tengu for like 2 minutes lol.
Although this may seem to be an extreme measure, this is the only combination I found that can TANK THE RATS and TRADE TACKLE between Gurista jams.
Don’t even bother fitting guns to your Panther, you’ll be jammed half the time and you won’t be able to recover cap between jams (jam stops nos too, and you need the nos to keep the tank going when you’re off-jam).
NOTE 2: Although the “cap stability” of the Panther and Ishtar may seem unnecessary, you don’t want to be switch frantically between all three windows to pulse your armor repairers. Thus you fit for cap stability so you can leave all the repair mods perma-running on their own.
TIP 2: Start the fight with web drones on your ishtar as well until your vengenace arrives. And don’t forget to switch to damage drones once you’re well situated. I also forgot to switch to damage drones on my Ishtar for quite some time. Don’t make that mistake lol! You need the damage pressure to force him to cycle his shield rep (and cap himself out sooner!).
TIP 3: If any blues enter local, convo them for assistance. The sooner the ratter dies the better.
TIP 4: Make sure the hostiles SEE your Pilgrim. You want them to see it. Psychological warfare is your only weapon vs the blob.
TIP 5: Don’t rebubble in your Eris during the frigate swap. I made this mistake but thankfully didn’t die (had I died I would have trapped my pod). As soon as your Panther/Ishtar land their tackle, warp to your vengeance.
This is your suicide 50MN eris build (use AC’s to kill drones):
This is your vengeance build:
Don’t be that idiot (me), who attempts to tackle a ratter without a cap booster in a frigate, thinking a single/double nosferatu will keep your cap up. It WONT. When the gurista rats jam you, you lose your target and vamps on the ratter, which caps you out. Thus the gurista rats also punish VAMPS and therefore indirectly contribute to CAPACITOR WARFARE with their ECM.
Here’s a good example of what happens when you think you can perma tank a ratter using a nosferatu in Gurista space (you get jammed and lose your nosferatu, cap out and die):
Notice that all three of the kill ships (Ven/Ish/Panther) are preparing for DIRECT ecm warfare and therefore INDIRECT capacitor warfare due to losing target+vamps.
You must fit all three ships as I posted above. If you cap yourself out, the rats will kill you since your armor reps fail.
Overall, this is fairly easy way to catch ratters (solo???) in deep hostile Gurista space COUGH.
Of course, if executing this strategy is unavailable to you due to a lack of:
1: Accounts.
2: Corresponding skills on those accounts.
3: Lack of PvP Multiboxing experience.
Then you can go to any non-gurista space and solo kill ratters 1v1 in a Loki. Be advised however that current game mechanics protect bots, bot aspirants and even honest active ratters (Iike this tengu pilot) in Gurista space.
Also bear in mind that you can still get blobbed by a response fleet at any time in deep hostile space and lose your Panther, Ishtar and Bling Vengeance. If you see you’re about to get blobbed, get the Panther out and cloak up. Get the vengeance out too and log off. Leave the Ishtar as the suicide distraction (unless you can also get him out and log off).
As to why you need THREE ships.
Ship 1 keeps a point.
Ship 2 gets jammed.
Ship 3 keeps a point.
Then.
Ship 1 keeps point.
Ship 2 unjams (begins retarget)
Ship 3: Gets jammed (lose point).
If you only have two ships (whether they are multiboxed or a second player), there is a high chance of losing point during the jam swaps. You will always need three ships in Gurista space to 100% guarantee that the point is not lost.
As you can see CODE taught this Tengu pilot a hard lesson in High sec:
So ever since he moved to Gurista space since he knows that gurista rats will protect him against most kills.
There is one solo kill by a Curse on this pilot, it is safe to assume that the Curse waited until the Tengu had killed all the Jamming rats (a mistake the Tengu never made again since he has never since been solo killed).
It appears this pilot also had bot aspirations at some point and was killed three times in an AFK Gila in wormhole space:
He since then returned to Gurista space for rat ECM protection and never tried to go back to High Sec due to CODE.
@Lord_Kalus just for you!
Please note that if you don’t have a GURISTA RATTING PERMIT I will triple-box you with an Eris/Vengeance + Pilgrim/Panther + Ishtar.
And you never know…I might actually have a fleet behind either cyno…tell your blob to stay home…they shouldn’t bear such a risk for your mistake.
a panther being jammed, and you are saying no guns… he can still FIGHT THE JAMMERS!!! what part of that do you not understand… you can attack the jackrabbits jamming you.
I need the neuts and vamp for the PvP part. The moment you start attacking rats the Ratter will escape. I also don’t have time for all that %^&* when I’m triple boxing. The panther is mostly on “forget mode” while I actively manage the Vengenance.
Perhaps with three actual players (not boxers) you could fit guns and pop the rats. I can’t do all that at once as a single person while boxing three different ships. I have to perma run the tank and neuts on the Panther so I don’t need the Panther window open more than necessary.
Multibox PvP is about minimizing your perspective switches (even if you’re on more than one monitor). If I focus my human attention on killing rats I’m going to lose my attention on the actual goal: The Ratter.
The Panther must maintain it’s active tank and it’s neuts at all times (when unjammed) and this is only possible through vamps (since the Ishtar will be jammed and lose its neut pressure once the Panther is unjammed).
And only fitting a couple of guns would just be retarded. Thus I would have to fit a full rack of guns for this to even work…and therefore not have the neut pressure.
Also, you apparently have no PvP experience according to zkill.
You should also be aware that killing particular jammers might trigger a new rat wave, making the jams even more intense.
Please come back to this thread after you have gained relavent PvP and hunting experience.
I’m glad the story had a happy ending after all. 
why did you partial quote?
“I have discovered the secret to killing ratters IN GURISTA SPACE”
A deliberate deception on behalf of the Gurista botting community.
Because I’m a fat and lazy american. Sorry about that. 
Whine whine whine. This experience is not different to the guy sitting in a belt trying to mine in a venture and the rats break the target lock just as regularly.
This is like getting angry at Delve for having a super umbrella, because they worked hard at building it and defending it.
Don’t rats in other parts of space do the same behaviour? Oh, the difference there is that Guristas will jam, rather than paint or sensor damp and that so there’s not lock to watch the target die?
The video linked looks like things are working as intended. A RAM won’t shift to the resist nearly that fast even with perfect skills, a cruiser is almost an optimal sig radius to get hurt by missiles and with webs mitigating the speed tank, it supposed to fold like its a wet paper bag.
For crying out loud, the straios is in half hull before the fight begins!
How hard is it to just throw your drones at the guy and burn away, if they are really a bot its not like they are going to warp off.
What a waste of a candidate slot. EVE has much bigger problems.
The solution all along. EVE is a team game, bring friends and stop trying to pad zkill with ‘solo’ entries.
Then how come every other hunter in the game isn’t dying like their ship is made out of paper mâché?
How dare you suggest 31337 PVP requires one to do PVE?
There’s a lot in EVE that should not require two accounts, yet so many do it because they value independence more than wish to develop relationships and work with others instead.
No.
Its rats with ECM that are the problem and its stubbornness. Adding ECCM in the mids likely breaks the fit, dropping tackle means the target can get away. There should not be an ‘I win’ button.
In the linked video the stratios gets webbed and disrupted. Before aggression, should it not be that the Ishtar is webbed and disrupted?
Were they reported as a botter?
At least its not hanging out on a trade hub route ship scanning people to gank.
This is the best argument thus far that the target is a bot, actual humans would have docked up.
When I lived in Null, this is exactly what was done when baiting out droppers, though usually it was enough to jam them out because their cyno kept them in place long enough for the rats to hurt them and leave the field a bunch of angry blops with nothing to shoot.
Youtube Golem vs 30. There’ a Balghorn vs 12+ in a wormhole too.
Then they are doing it wrong. Traps on the second gate are better so both sides can be bubbled.
I hear there are ratters in Delve where the rats do not ECM. Maybe that will be more fun.
Guristas are majority kinetic damage though, would that not be a shield tank is more appropriate?
No, its at this point that time might have been better spent poking myself in the leg with a fork repeatedly.
Person complaining about killing ratters solo finds method with 3 accounts.
EVE. Working as intended.
Pro bot post detected. Let’s look at this poster’s top three pro-bot statements:
“I hear there are ratters in Delve where the rats do not ECM. Maybe that will be more fun…”
This poster obviously runs a bot storm in Gurista space and wants us to go elsewhere and knows that if enough CSM/CCP members see the general positive concenus to this thread that his profits will go down in Gurista space.
“Guristas are majority kinetic damage though, would that not be a shield tank is more appropriate?”
The bot leader wants to fit a 100MN AB + neut to escape your scram/vamp, since he knows that you cannot fit both a web and a cap booster on a shield tanked ship and is both PvP and PvE viable. He also knows that when the Gurista jams land that your vamp will turn off and you’ll cap yourself out just to stay alive (that’s when he may even deploy his own scram to force you to stay on grid and therefore force you to run your reppers and cap yourself out).
His bots will also carry a set of Mjolnir Missiles/Amarr Drones (EM damage)> since he knows that you’ll be forced to tank specifically against Gurista rats with so little mods dedicated to your shield tank.
"Person complaining about killing ratters solo finds method with 3 accounts.
EVE. Working as intended."
The BOT GOD admits that Gurista rats offer protection up to and against 2 players in local, giving his bots more uptime, since 2 players cannot reliably hold a point due to Jam + unjam cycles (the unjammed begins to retarget and the newly jammed loses points, the bot spamming warp succeeds in the brief moment neither attacker has him targeted).
SPECIAL MENTION
“This is the best argument thus far that the target is a bot, actual humans would have docked up.”
No. Bots are the first to dock up. Whoever was running the Ishtar bot either had a bug in his code or the Ishtar was specifically programmed to not dock unless there are three in local. Seeing that my solo Loki failed four consecutive times to kill the bot (the bot continued killling the Guristas during all the attacks) due to perma jams, it’s also safe to assume that the programmer did indeed write his bot logic to NOT dock when there’s only one in local since he knows no solo ship can break the perma jams.
Hell…the rats even kill your drones that are attacking the Ishtar…my god!
ANd finally:
“Its rats with ECM that are the problem and its stubbornness. Adding ECCM in the mids likely breaks the fit, dropping tackle means the target can get away. There should not be an ‘I win’ button.”
Having AN ARMY OF ECM RATS PERMA JAMMING YOUR ATTACKER IS AN IWIN BUTTON.
In fact it’s an “I WIN WHILE AFK BUTTON.”
You’re clearly defending the Gurista botting community. They have higher uptime (and therefore isk/h) because they can rely on rats to perma jam solo hunters.
Why do you do believe Gurista ratters should have such a serious advantage over all other ratters? Even high sec is more dangerous than Gurista null.
where you at in hisec and i’ll come kill the poor little guristas in my ■■■■■■■ raven.
You have an empty killboard. You don’t even play the game.
I play, i just never registered on Zkill… and i wasn’t even specifically talking about this character… i do have other characters…
I don’t know what it is I said that got my post flagged either.
If you look at the amount of effort that went into find the solution ( panther, Ishtar, etc ) it is obvious they are not a dummy and are persistent, but at the same time, surely with as much or less effort, someone else out there could have been found to help also.
What confuses me the most was that when I lived in Null, forces aligned with the droppers/hunters always outnumbered the defenders, were always attacking from a position of strength ( hit and run is so cyno ) and countering the drop might always have started off counter-counter-drop escalation.
That this part of space is not as cut and dry as elsewhere, invites an argument that the NPC’s in all locations should not be locked to just a few racial electronic warfare effects but be expected to have access to all effects, just with a stronger effect for faction specific types, which would make the differences less extreme…
Its not that they have an advantage, its that their ship selection is considerate of their environment.
The same could be said for mining ships, in Sansha space they have to spend almost all their rig and mids on tank, where as in Gurista space the same slots can be used for yield or harvesting bonus rigs.
The reduction to resist module bonus only reinforces that ship selection matters, its now much more difficult to tank a shield ship against em-thermal, and more difficult to tank an armour ship against kin/explo.
Unless there’s a desire to go back to the old days of all powerful drakes that could do any level 4?
i know what i said to get flagged… i’m not changing it either.
well i dont do that either but at least that actually pays…
