Or just not be a bad by attracting attention to yourself by flying shiny crap or ■■■■ fits…
+1 You’re a genius, i’m going to make permanent CEO alts for all my corps now and be free to use the Omegas for better stuff
Cheers for pointing out the obvious o/
No, I am not here to complain (however, for future note, when I complain here for getting SD while outside of highsec then you can pull that card out for debate), and certainly, I am not here to argue the several inappropriate/moot replies, I am just making observation and pointing out apparent flaws in game play, namely as to the following points, hopefully so as to improve future game play:
- As a new player, I am in highsec for an obvious reason, I should not be thrust into PVP on the laziness and greed of others–to wit, there is apparently a huge alliance of (overly qualified) corporate players who namely just camp in and around Jita scanning ships 24/7, they then attempt to provoke attacks by repeatedly bumping and/or declaring war on them, and also posting bounties on them. (I am sorry, but this type of game play should be prohibited in safe territory unless it is consensual, there are plenty of other zones designated for these contrived tactics.) I expect this elsewhere, but not in highsec.
1a. As a new player, I am not too familiar with the ramifications of being declared war upon–to this, I thought in highsec it only meant those players could attack my structures (after 24-hour notice) and it would highlight me on their overview whenever in proximity. I thought highsec was a safe haven for all, excluding only criminals, and Concord would instantly kill any aggressors. More to the point, I thought in any case or at worst, they would just get a few shots off before I dock as I warped in from point A to B–as I could not have possibly conceived that other players could take virtual could control of my ship, i.e., after warping in, I spend the entire time clicking dock and approach with my 500MN MWD already active, yet my ship was still turned 180-degrees and pulled further and further from dock (and of course if I had stricken back I forfeit my docking privileges, and they greatly out numbered me anyway and had me three-fold webbed.)
1b. To my knowledge, Jita is by far the best single region to purchase items and at competitive prices, items that are rare finds elsewhere and are generally more costly. It is a great one place stop-and-shop.
1c. Throughout highsec, docking/undocking should be absolutely worry free/easy–and should not be prevented by a large group of players that are working together to bump you into space, while multi-interdicting your ship and mass-droning, mass-firing upon your ship and then your pod. (In effect SDing you all of about 30-seconds.)
1d. If nothing else there should be an option to forfeit/surrender to wars declared upon those that have been within highsec for the last 24-hours of the war declaration (and for corporations headquartered in highsec and that meet the foregoing requirement), simply acknowledging the superiority of the declarer or whatever, with no other consequences to the conceding player/corporation; save that the declarer will then be granted a 24-hour period to begin attacking any highsec structures owned by that player/corporation.
1e. There should also be an option to turn yourself into Concord to remove a bounty on you.
- It seems from things I have read that declaring war and posting bounties on other players in highsec has devolved into an ongoing form of player harassment, as such things are being done without any underlying causation first being established.
2a. With exception to player owned structures/gates, non-consensual combat should be prohibited throughout highsec.
2b. In any case, prerequisites should be met before being permitted to post bounties on other players, such as being attacked without provocation or having claims stolen, etc., and granted a 24-hour period for which to make such claims. Otherwise, this is just blatant harassment upon new players and at little cost to the challenger, e.g., 100K or 50M ISK.
2c. As to the above, unless consensual combat is involved only one claim may be permitted by the same player, corporation or alliance per incident–additionally, attacking back in your own defensive of having an attack instigated against you, should not count as consensual combat or an offensive act.
- Ship bumping apparently interferes with the warp process and effectively prevents the affected player from docking by pushing them away from structures; thus, it should cause harm upon the at-fault player in relation to their velocity and the ship masses involved, e.g., damaging a percentage of shield, armor, and hull damage.
3a. Further, in highsec, ship bumping should activate a timer that prevents further movement of the at-fault, e.g., their speed comes to rest and then they are frozen for 35-seconds and meanwhile cannot engage in offensive combat, but can fight back against anybody engaging them offensively.
3b. A player that has been ship bumped should receive an immunity timer or something similar that nullifies or mitigates any subsequent ship bumps by any player and also prevents them from ship bumping other players during that timeframe, e.g., just make the ships pass through each other for the next 45-seconds.
- Regarding the programming aspect (the above reply), the programming language is compiled into binary, but is written in readable (OOP) syntax; it applies simple boolean and XOR logic, the game’s variables/Db schema stores (among many things) who initiated and joined in the attack and can logic an offensive player from a counter-offensive/defensive (i.e., the difference between webbing a player and then shooting at them and firing back at the player webbing and shooting you; as is the difference between breaking into someone’s home for thievery and punching the occupants in the face only to find one of the occupants pointing a shotgun at you for breaking into their home and battering their family); there is virtually no limit to the use of logic and class/routine procedures that can be accomplished via varying computer languages. (This functions similarly as to how Lancers know when to initiate an attack on you for the day or when to leave you be in consequence of your earlier attack on them.)
4a. To this point, players first being attacked, should not loose their docking privileges, if they should strike back, perhaps excluding mutual combat agreements.
- The use of interdictors/webbing should either be nerfed or prohibited for use within x-distance of structures/gates throughout highsec–there is simply no challenge to using these (low cost) devices to freeze another player’s movement and then SDing them; as there is no effective counter to them either.
5a. This is unfair to single players, for they have no recourse and ECM is just not at all effective (and certain types of these devices are prohibited for use in highsec) with respect to being interdicted/webbed, and has no chance at all when attempting to counter a group of players that are engaging multiple simultaneous holds on you–it does not matter your ship or its subjective fit (excluding super ships perhaps), at this time you are dead, it just a matter of a short-lived timeframe, which in most cases is barely enough time to react in whatever instance, losing 1-3 thousand points per second.
5b. Interdicting/webbing does not appear to take into account ship masses and velocities, e.g., small ships interdicting/webbing larger ships should greatly diminish the devices effectiveness; with additional consideration to the player coming out or entering warp is also worthwhile, by mitigating its overall effectiveness.
5c. Further, simultaneous interdicting/webbing should result in interference penalties as to each units effectiveness when being gang-banged.
5d. As it stands now, it seems that interdictors/webbing does more than just prevent warping–perhaps the effect is further enhanced when combined with ship bumping, but it appears to allow other players to maneuver another’s ship around in addition to terminating all forward/warp abilities. Perhaps this device needs to be modded so as to reduce a designated percentage of the vessels overall velocity, granting the power and cost of the unit, e.g., reduces a player’s ship moving velocity by 5%, 10%, 15%, 25%, 50%, 75%, while also preventing warp outs. And additionally compensated by a new skill advancements. Further, perhaps it should consume much more cap while in use, the device is attempting to prevent another from entering warp after all.
Also regarding this incident, I was sent a crazy email from somebody, it is not true about the structure though, I had already gone back to pickup my items from Jita, and the bump resulted in me being SD:
Issues with docking
I’m the current President of the New Eden Bumpers Union and I felt it necessary to discuss the recent event with you. I noticed that you were attempting to dock in a station, but found yourself being bumped out of docking range by me.
I’m not sure if you knew this but that station is under quarantine due to a recent freak accident involving 2 Fedo and 1 cup. I’m glad that I managed to save you from imminent harm.
If you have more questions or are interested in paying a monthly fee to have the New Eden Bumpers Union protect you with our alternate form of ‘ELITE PVP’, please feel free to contact me.
Okay dude… really now…
This is both the wrong forum for that (this forum section is for newbies to ask questions and become better) and your perception on how the game “should be” is based largely on misinformation and lack of want to adapt or change (the onus is on the player to find the information they need, figure things out, and apply it for their own benefit).
Going down the points…
High-sec space has never been a “safe place.” Ever.
It was never designed to be. At all.
In fact… no part of the game was designed to be “truly safe” in any real sense. Even in station you can be “attacked” through your wallet (see: people can buy all the products being sold in a station and then resell them at 50000% markup… yes, this has happened before).
What you see as a “design flaw” was purposefully built into the game itself from the very start (some 12 years ago) and has been more or less maintained that way.
Inter-player conflict or cooperation was the design intent from the game. Both aspects work for and against each other to create interesting situations that players must work for and against (see: adapt).
How people go about it is up to them. No tactics or behavior, unless it violates the Terms of Service or End User License Agreement, is off the table.
“As a new player” nothing. War means exactly that; WAR.
It is pretty straightforward. As was the message that is automatically sent when war was declared on you.
I remember my early days as a newbie. My corporation had war declared on it and my immediate reaction was, "oh ■■■■… does this mean someone can shoot me now?"
I looked up “wars in EVE Online” and confirmed with with other corp members.
You are not special here. No one is. Whether they are a defender, aggressor, or third party… the mechanics apply the same for everyone.
Jita has the largest market, yes. But in being the largest market hub it also carries the largest potential risk for traders as predators will be attracted to where the most “honey” is.
Again… there are no “safe places.”
The economy in EVE depends on war and war depends on the economy. Those modules and weapons you bought? Probably made or scavenged by the same people who shot you.
You DO have the option to “surrender.” It is called "dropping out of the corporation."
See… the thing about corporations in EVE is that they are nothing like “guilds” in other games. Here, they actually mean something.
Making a corporation is effectively declaring to others that you want to play with the “big boys” and have all the benefits of a corporation (escaping taxes, building structures, name recognition, etc).
The last incarnation of the bounty system did have certain “prerequisites” that needed to be met.
However those requisites pretty much made it impossible to put a bounty on someone who deserved a bounty outside of those parameters (ex. stealing everything in a corporation, spying, scouting, being a third party helper to an engagement, buying out everything on the market for giggles, being a genuine asshat, etc).
But that is moot point. The bounty system doesn’t really carry any real weight with it because if it did, it would be extremely abusable (there is a lot more to this subject than you may realize).
Ship bumping? That subject has been beaten to death. The DEVs more or less ruled that it is okay unless people do it for an extended period of time for no reason (keeping a target off balance is sufficient reason).
Plus, your solution was countered in many threads (see: people can easily turn it around and use it against people).
I am not even going to pretend to understand what you wrote about programming language. But trust me, any system you create I can find a way to turn it around and use it against you.
It has been done in the past and it will be done in the future. Better to keep things simple and straightforward rather than over complicate things in a way that only veterans will be able to decypher.
There is no such thing as a “fair fight” in EVE.
Anything you can do as a single player, a group can do it better. There is nothing unfair about it.
After all… a group of players working together is nothing more than “solo players” who happen to be working towards the same goal.
If you put arbitrary restrictions on group effort… what is the point of grouping up with others?
Hell… I am pretty sure someone would find a loophole in that system too (we are good at that sort of thing here).
I already explained in my post that yes, in a direct engagement you would have lost in any ship regardless of the type.
Now… had you flown an actual ECM-centric ship… fitted for speed and target specific ECM… used an insta-undock bookmark… you would have not only gotten away, but you could have also caused a bit of frustration for them (which I consider a “win” in my book).
The rest of it is just “I don’t like this” and “it should be different” stuff… which, I am going to go on a limb and assume, you are getting by comparing EVE to other games.
EVE isn’t like other games. It is best to forget what you learned out there and play with a fresh mindset (see: “I know nothing and should learn as much as possible”)
Yeah… I don’t say this often… but I don’t think this is your kind of game.
Also… this is extremely relevant:
Yes… this is an official CCP thread.
Never use Autopilot, always do manual piloting and use the jump command in the selected items box to go from gate to next gate. Same with stations, just use the dock command in the selected items box.
Lots of good info in this thread, but also big wall-of-texts
Although walls of text is the best way to give the most info
Your contribution to this thread is above and beyond anything I’ve seen elsewhere. As a three week newbie It’s gold dust.
Anyone new to this game would do well to research it thoroughly before getting confident.
There’s a lot out there - Eve University, a plethora of YouTube videos, this Forum, etc.
My intent is simply to point out that it is pointless to argue “what the mechanics should be” and that it is better to come from the perspective of "what are the mechanics and how can I best utilize them?"
Though… that may not always come out properly (probably because I tend to be in a “voluntary chemical haze” when I peruse these forums ).
Anyways… if you like that… you should also take a peek at a thread I made on the previous forums. Maybe they may help you glean more about the intricacies of the game.
Going point by point answering each thing you’ve said would just be another WOT (we already have enough of that… some of it very good @ShahFluffers but I don’t think we need more) so I’m going to (try to) condense my response to you down to a single simile & hope you get it
So this guy walks into a room full of chess geeks & says “I want to play but don’t know the rules, we should change them so all pieces move one space in any direction, that makes more sense to me”
Play the game a bit more man, by your own admission you don’t understand it enough to suggest changes or what “should be”.
EVE is not fair.
For better or for worse, depending on your personal viewpoint, EVE is not fair.
Some people love that about the game, myself included. Some people hate that about EVE.
But no matter where you stand, the fact of the matter is EVE was designed to be unfair, and to favor the bold, the clever, and the socially adept.
Well, please, do attempt and keep your considerations in context, as I am not arguing that EVE is not fair or that is should always be fair, but that this contrived tactic (thoroughly addressed supra) is unfair and more to the point that there is overlooked programming logic involved; it is akin to having your roaming player trapped by a programming error within a wall or rock structure and having to restart the game all over akin.
Also, there is nothing at all clever, bold, or adept about literally trapping a player who is clearly new and just attempting to make their way about within a designated safe area–clearly abusing the same tired tactic over, and over, and over, and over. Less that they pay their designated tithe for their Mining Permit to the self proclaimed Creator of highsec–OMG, seriously!?
(These are not EVE players, they are zealot extortionists, who are too unskilled to run their three-card Monte scam in other than highsec. …Y’all James 3:15 cohorts need to go read that whole chapter, because your entire alliance is a mockery unto it.) And this is about the dumbest thing I have yet come across; honestly, it really makes me not want to play this game any longer–realizing there are such idiots ruling their contrivances about public realms: www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
EVE is a fictional game, I have played many such a game in my life, I have a fair concept of game play. I am a self-learned Web developer, I have a fair concept of how coding logic and processes function.
The game of EVE is constantly evolving and existing features being modified, such as the Orca for example.
The way that ship bumping functions now is illogical, you can put lip stick on that pig all you like, but at the end of the day you are still putting makeup on a pig.
The logic that is applied uniformly to other items of offensive equipment while around structures and gates does not follow that of interdictors/webbing equipment, meanwhile there are no currently effective counters to these items within such areas and such items are seemingly far too powerful or overly effective.
I am player, I have an opinion on the matter as do you, just because you have been playing EVE longer than me, does not make you right and me wrong by some perceived EVE gaming superiority.
Not sure what you mean by the first part. Interdictors / webbing equipment have the same restrictions as any other combat modules, around station or otherwise.
I understand you are a player, and your opinion is your right. That said, being a web developer and knowing about code have absolutely nothing to do with the core game mechanics of a game you have little experience with. For instance if i have eaten 1000x as many burgers as you, i am categorically a better person to give advice on burgers than you. This is not “perceived burger eating superiority”, it is actual burger knowledge superiority. Your pig make-up analogy fits well here, since you are decorating a simple concept with extra BS just to make yourself feel better. Having played EvE for countless hours actually does make my opinion on game mechanics more valid than someone who has played for just a few, and understands little about how it all fits together into a bigger picture.
Without experience, opinion is inevitably just conjecture.
Well, not exactly, say while playing a game of chess your opponent suddenly begins smacking your hand with a ball-peen hammer every time you reach for a piece during your turn to advance it, therafter forcing you to flee to the hospital after several attempts at this, that player then proclaiming that the rules don’t say they cannot do it, so they are just and godly.
No it’s not like that at all.
Ok… going back to my chess analogy, it’s much more like a complete chess novice playing with his grandfather (or any other older player who knows the game), who moves his Queen out into center field straight into the path of a Bishop… and loses it.
He didn’t know Bishops moved like that so he thinks his grandfather cheated, his grandfather who had thought he had a better grasp of the games rules tries to explain them to him…
But he thinks his grandfather is winding him up & won’t believe him.
What happened to you IS game mechanics working as intended & there ARE plenty of ways to avoid it happening (mostly of the “don’t plonk your Queen down invitingly in front of a Bishop” variety), you just have to learn them.
Go back & read what @ShahFluffers has already told you because it’s mostly all in there
Well the thing is… In this version of chess, it actually IS within the rules to smash your hand with a hammer, and it’s up to you to defend yourself against it.
Looking back at the original question, the above quote most adequately summarizes the answer. The victim had a general lack of understanding of the mechanics, believing “high security” = complete security or safe zone. There was a lack of understanding of the war dec mechanics.
The fact that the victim posted this summary means that, through this thread, he/she has gained some knowledge and may avoid such issues in the future. We all learn one way or another, many of us via “the hard way”. Many EVE players can share stories about “that first time entering low sec” or “first time ganked or scammed”. Everyone was a new player at some point.
That’s some serious bling on your ship though. In a game where many consider ships “disposable” and “assume your ship is lost when you undock it”, you’re definitely rolling some serious ISK for, as you call yourself, a new player.