Also, here’s a quote from MMOs from the Inside Out by Richard Bartle:
Although, strictly speaking, PvP and PvE can cover all manner of activities, combat is the usual differentiator. If you spend your time fighting other player characters, that’s PvP; if you spend your time fighting computer-controlled enemies, that’s PvE.
That usual is kinda important. Because EVE is very different from most other games due to the market. The competitive market means that player versus player extends beyond combat into any activity because you will inevitably bring your goods to market where they will be bought by another player. When a high sec miner sells their ore that cuts into the potential profits of every other miner in the game.
This is very different from most games where most transactions occur between players and NPC vendors. In such a game as Fallout 76, Borderlands, and Diablo trading between players is such a minor part that you can completely ignore it if you want.
I didn’t ignore the quote at all, I merely pointed out that usual doesn’t mean only.
As for selectively paying attention depending on whether or not I agree with the quote, you may want to look in a mirror because you certainly seemed to ignore most of the quote I pulled from Building Virtual Worlds.
“Not really. It just means trade is PvP. It doesn’t mean that by extensions firing a laser at a rock is inherently PvP. It’s still a PvE activity”
If you mine with a ship/modules that you didn’t purchase from another player and you don’t sell anything you mine to another player then that would be correct, as soon as you engage in trade with another player you have committed PvP by market interaction. If you want to sit in a rookie ship and collect rocks with a civilian laser by all means go ahead, I doubt anyone will bother you. Otherwise you need to accept that your actions affect every other player in the game whether you like it or not.
You are contradicting yourself…the point of most games is to entertain.
I said it was pointless to me because I value the “what you do matters” part of MMOs and PvP games like RUST. Without an economy, ED seemed pointless for me because nothing I did mattered as the AI would just RNG a new mission or price in a few minutes…
ED was entertaining for a while but is one of the shallowest (yet largest) MMOs I’ve ever played. The explorer types probably love it…
There is a huge difference in ‘shallowness’ between a game that is based on RNG responses on actions and a game that allows the market to function according to economic forces. Guess which one is the latter one.
Your definition of shallow is somewhat lacking.
You simply can’t resist the temptation to point out how “shallow”, “easy”, “money grabbing” or “whateverflavorofthemoment” EvE is at every occasion, imagined or not, on these forums. We already know your view and your feelings on the subject. It’s past old, it’s fossilized. Like all other bittervets take the advice: take a break from the game. Then come back with renewed enthusiasm and motivation. The game publisher will not change the order of business because of your or anyone else’s dislike of certain aspects in conducting that business.
You started off by talking about tank and bumping, and now you’ve moved the goalposts to “insta-align frigates can warp out before you can lock them”. Now are you ever going to stop lying?
What people here are saying is that because PvP mechanics exist around PvE mechanics, that makes the PvE mechanic itself a PvP mechanic.
No, that is not at all what we are saying. We are saying that, to the extent that any opposition between sides exists in these activities, it is in the form of conflict and competition with other players. Mining is not PvE because the environment does not oppose your efforts in any meaningful way except the triglavian anti-AFK spawns. You press F1 to mine, you receive exactly the ore your ship stats tell you that you will get with zero chance of failure.
Except I wasn’t making a declarative statement on games as a whole…
I skipped that because I already stated that the AI will just issue new goods/missions/prices if you just wait. You made a statement with not even an example. Trading has zero effect other than to that immediate player. For all intent it’s a single player game in that regards.
Played for a year in 2008 but RL was too busy…been here pretty much non-stop since late 2014 so “influx”…ya no. The worst part of Eve are the whiners (such as yourself) that like to whine about things yet are here day in and day out.
Yes you did. Nothing in that quote has anything to do with insta-align frigates or covert ops ships traveling under cloak, as neither of those are in any way related to tank or bumping.
Yes it is. You’re saying that even firing a laser at an inanimate rock is PvP because you can trade rocks.
Because pressing F1 to mine is only part of mining as an activity, much like warping to a target is only part of combat PvP. When you consider the entire activity of mining, not just the time that your mining laser is active, the only opposition you see anywhere in the process outside of anti-AFK spawns is against other players.
that PvE playstyles should die in a fire
And why shouldn’t they? If I want to build an industrial empire why should I have to deal with a market flooded with excess production by risk-averse farmers sitting there AFK mining/ratting/etc 23/7? Why should people be allowed to opt out of being interfered with but still participate in the market?
“Except I wasn’t making a declarative statement on games as a whole…”
Which is just like in X4…a SP game…doesn’t matter if an area is developed or not, you can still buy ships/equipment and trade…the AI will just RNG new numbers and poof, off you go…
So then that would make you one that wants PvP to be under-powered/non-existent, PvE rules everything and that Eve be made more of a SP experience MMO. Go back to Minecraft with the rest of your little mates.
‘my’ massive oversimplification ? Unless you refer to games being oversimplifications of certain RL aspects, why yes, obviously and by necessity - although I read that there are simulators that predict how voters’ behavior can be influenced in targeted directions, or how people react to emergencies like fire in a subway station, someone could create a new product for the gaming industry perhaps.
On the other hand, I also read that some economists are looking at our economic EvE model with appreciation and interest. Could it be that it is not that shallow as you make it look ?
So, on top of the group of players who started out between 2010 and 2012 (another thing you like to point out at multiple occasions) there is now also an extra group of Fortnite players whom you dislike. Why all these people ? Did some of them voice an opinion you don’t like, and happened to be Fortnite players or Eve players since 2010-12 ? Is that a Kellian Extrapolation to One Size Fits All ?
IF YOU want to present the sandbox view, you’d better discover the balance between all the forces within the game and try to readjust your notion of what is meant by PvP, and not argue from a comfortable position of ‘my definition is the only right one and everyone else is wrong’.
Then what exactly were you talking about? You have yet to provide an example of a ship that fits your initial claim about “too tanky and too hard to keep bumped”.
The bit that is PvP is combat and trade which are two separate mechanics.
Which is like claiming that warping is a separate mechanic and should be evaluated as PvE or PvP independent from the reason you are warping. And even when you look at just the extraction of minerals the only conflict or opposition you see is with other players: suffering or evading combat PvP threats, competing for finite resources, etc. At no point outside of anti-AFK spawns does the environment ever oppose you, so by definition it can not be PvE.
It’s hardly a secret. I’ve said for a long time that PvE in EVE is fundamentally broken. It’s boring as hell and it’s completely disconnected from the rest of the game in both fluff and gameplay. And TBH it only exists because back in 2003 CCP wasn’t willing to completely break with genre conventions and felt like they needed to have a questing mechanic like every other MMO. If the ISK source/sink balance can be figured out I’d be perfectly happy to see PvE removed.
Now, the part you’ll dishonestly remove from your quote is the fact that industry, trade, etc are PvP activities and would not be removed at all. The competitive capitalism side of EVE would remain 100% intact. The only loss would be the PvE-only players that insist on having a game of passive wealth accumulation and menial farming activities.
Abusing the flag system to silence criticism of your lies doesn’t make your lies true.
Nope. The term is “player versus player”, not “player passively watches something happen”. At no point in the act of extracting minerals from a rock does the environment oppose your efforts, therefore it can not be PvE.
Well that’s certainly some massive dishonesty from you, accusing me of “religious persecution” and omitting the fact that the “religion” in question is Naari/Noori’s creative writing exercise where he put a bunch of “god” references into an incel manifesto, explicitly advocating for turning children into breeding slaves for the sacred male seed (but only of the pure and righteous race, which needs to out-breed the dirty races).
Yep…CCP does seem to cater to the whiner babies of Eve with all the nerfs over the years…Soon you will have the PvE arenas you’ve always dreamed of…oh wait…
But you don’t have to so up to that point, it’s PvE…achievements are outside the game as are leader boards…
