Why I care about new players, and you should too

Im not opposed to the idea. I am just confused as to why me, since we see the same problems but have very different conclusions. From my perspective we are two forum randoms (no offense intended here), not exactly compelling podcast material.

Well, you do care, and I do care. We see the same problems but have partly different opinions about why they exist. We both represent (in our random dudeness) the two sides clashing here often.

There could be worse people for a podcast topic on this issue :slight_smile:

What I get from this thread, and this was spoken out many times is, that EvEā€™s tutorials and even some veteran players are not able to teach new players what New Eden is all about. There are so many misconceptions, that itā€™s a pain to read (again and again).

Maybe the biggest two misconceptions are, ā€œbigger is betterā€, and ā€œrisk need to be eliminated at all costā€. In reality, ā€œclever use of tools and environment is betterā€, and ā€œfactoring regular ship loss into your activity is betterā€.

I might give you a first (or second hand) example, there are droves of salvagers/looters dieing every day in Pochven, but still make hundreds of million ISK every day, because they fly super cheap ships, and most are probably just Alphas. If they can bring in one carry, they can probably lose 10 more ships before getting negative.

Highsec is safe, and ganking is the Black Swan, and I admit, this is a psychological worse situation than other regions, where shooting first is the only rule, which is easy to grasp. New players need to be taught that, and the tools and means to prepare ā€¦ and they will be fine.

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WOT boils down to be just yet another hand-wringing wonā€™t-somebody-think-of-the-children??!!! gank-hating reeee.

New players are gamers, not babies.

Oh, so youā€™re one of those recruitment spammers.

What is your opinion on the second problem mentioned in my text? That last one is a far more significant problem. I am coming to think that as soon as someone mentions ganking of new players (and it is only about new players and only one problem), nuclear reactions will be considered, and one must stop reading :slight_smile:

I came to the conclusion that someone did not read, or did not understand. :wink:

I bet you stopped at the word ganking.

Nope. You lose. I read every word of your redundant screed. Somewhat ironically, the olā€™ ā€œif you donā€™t wholeheartedly agree with me then obviously you must not have read my brilliant and of course irrefutable manifestoā€ thing is pretty way over stale.

So about that recruitment-spammer confessionā€¦is SICO still around or you do it for a new-player-exploiting group like it?

Not one time in my emails did I mention the word recruitment. In fact, in our help channel, was recruitment not welcomed. Also, most players were in corps already, but they enjoyed a place to ask questions to eve or just chat.

Interesting how reality meets assumptions.

And nothing about that touches the problems mentioned in the post. But you did well in trying to insult other people. Its a way to paint a picture.

What second problem? Finding a group to play with? Join NPSI fleets, come to FW or even Pochven, talk to people you fight with or against, plenty of smaller active corps out there.

One practical hint, check zkill of the players you meet, it tells you what they are flying, with whom, when and how active their groups are, also their competence level and attitude.

All of the issues you bring up are super important!
Iā€™ve been playing for almost 20 years, and Iā€™m running for CSM18.
I do two things to keep my perspective in check and focused on new players.
1:I recruit new players and mentor them personally.
This might seem obvious, or even like itā€™s not the kind of thing an alliance leader should bother with personally. The data I get from holding a new playerā€™s hand from zero to hero is so valuable, and youā€™re very correct about this wall of death.
2:I donā€™t use alts or multibox.
Old eve players can bypass the need to ever functionally interact with a new player. Instead, I regularly am forced to ask a new player for help while explaining the task at hand, usually taking the time to not how intuitive this system is to somebody approaching it for the first time.

tl;dr I hear your concerns, and the retention of new and future is players is very high on my list of priorities. Iā€™d love to talk more. :smiley:

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Citation?

Everything I have been seeing seems to be opinion/personal experience.

I also have a strong hunch CCP will tout their progress on this at fanfest also.

No, none of that is part of the problem. I even wrote in the original post that finding a corp or group is not a problem.

There are two major points;

  1. The 6 to 8-week wall of death of player retention.
  2. The high-sec is not well iterated to help new corps grow to a size to flourish.

How and why it is a problem is to be found in the text.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

A few players already agreed on the problems, just not on all of the reasons why the issues are there. And this is a fair point to have. If we can address the issues, we will have a vibrant, refreshing, and growing player base.

I would very much like to have a talk about this with you on any platform.

To write here in-depth about this will sadly only lead to an even larger wall of text that even fewer people will read. I too mentor players, and with the help of the feedback I got from so many new players, I think the anecdotes and personal experiences of those players did become data to work with.

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I resent, just a bit, that you are making a call To the new faces of the CSM as some of us old folks are fairly connected to the NPE, myself and Corporal Filip, for example.

m

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Education is the right way to do this.

Educate new players on the complexities of EVE. NPE and the various career paths are an awesome thing.
Only CCP has the numbers, but I have a feeling what they did on that front has helped retain people and that is the goal of both the community and corporate interests.

:open_mouth:

I scaled the wuthering heights of your big, beautiful, wall of text but did you thank me for reading it all? NO! Instead what I got from you was:


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IMO corps donā€™t belong in highsec, they make no sense there. There is nothing in highsec a single player or casual group canā€™t do better. This is also a kind of misconception.

On the other hand you canā€™t learn to PvP or live in hostile environments in highsec. PvP in highsec is special, different to other spaces, and has a high entry barrier. This, ganking aside, because every PvPer in highsec flies the most bling ship/pod due to the low risk of losing.

Regarding the first, I think this is the point weā€™re players realize that they have to write their own story, means have to come up with a plan for getting fun from playing ā€¦

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Is this the official CCP point of view?
Do the Corps not belong in high-sec as a staging space to grow and get ready?

If so, I probably got it wrong and have to adjust my standpoint, hence it is more of an interpretation of a bug, then a future.

@CCP_Swift

As one shouts into the forests, it tends to echo back. What can we do about that?

You could start to be polite and interact for real with the post. There might be a different responseā€”just a guess on my side.

As you can see, how the other interactions go, even with opinions contrary to mine, could be an indicator.

The CCP view does not matter, there is not one for 99% of questions.

The only reason ā€œthe CCP official viewā€ as a rhetorical tool has been brought up the past >2 years has been to dismiss peopleā€™s opinions. Itā€™s really not constructive to go down this path.

What CCP is on the record saying is ā€œEve Online is a PvP game at its coreā€. It would be beneficial in high sec if it were like the rest of New Eden so that:

  • Players were not deceived by marketing about the true nature of the game
  • Rookie players could learn how to pirate and PvP
  • Rookie players learned how to survive (eg: its easier to survive rookie pirates) because fleeing and being slippery prey is also PvP

Because current high sec is sterile from the above list, there is no opportunity to ā€œgrowā€. Only the most elite, well-resourced can do high sec PvP (wardecs and ganking is all thats left), and this is by design of poor game mechanics. When only the best can do PvP, the targets only ever have stories of failure. Thereā€™s never a ā€œI survived a rookie pirateā€ story. There used to be plenty. And then plenty of grudges to go with it. And then plenty of motivation to log in. And then plenty of PCU player counts. It also allows poor mindsets to fester that are inapplicable to anywhere else in the game, and they infest other areas of space (see: calls on this forum for lowsec to have CONCORD, or better gate guns [which do nothing but exacerbate the divide], etc anything other than ā€œtake personal responsibility and get good at PvPā€).

EDIT: A CCP employee is on the record as having said ā€œhigh sec is its own endgameā€. This was before it was neutered.

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