Why is the skill progression to a Rorqual so bad?

(Zoltan Lazar) #1

More advanced ships in Eve usually have prerequisites that build from the previous stage. Frigate is a prerequisite of Destroyer, which in turn is a prereq for Cruiser, and then Battlecruiser and so on. Going sideways, the jump from T1 to T2 hulls still has the same weapons skills and switching between weapon systems often shares the support skills. It’s a well designed, smooth system.

For the subcap mining ships this progresses decently well. Mining frigate come before mining barge, which comes before exhumers. Astrogeology and mining give their bonuses to mining turrets which is beneficial for all of those hulls.

Enter the mining command ships. Their hull prerequisites are on a separate tree. They use only drones, so they don’t share the mining skills. This also means they don’t benefit from training the refining skills for crystals. The porp and orca mine less than an exhumer so the only reason to train towards them at all is while you wait for rorqual skills. The mining crystal skills are a total waste of SP when you’re aiming to eventually be in a rorq - crystals give little benefit and require a lot of SP.

This gives players a really bad set of choices. Train into subcap mining and waste all that SP but get something at least decent before the long train for a rorq - or train straight for the rorqual and have just a mediocre orca (especially bad if you have a friendly rorq to boost your exhumer) while you wait for a rorq training to finish.

There’s been a ton of really good changes with making rorqs into mining ships rather than just boosting ships. I’m just struggling to see how the skill progression for a rorq makes sense.

(Do Little) #2

Orca and Rorqual were never intended to be mining ships. They are command ships that provide boosts and other services to mining ships. CCP forced the command ships on-grid with the Ascension patch. Prior to that they used to boost the entire system from the safety of a POS forcefield. To compensate, they were allowed to use mining drones and participate in the harvest. The Orca seems well balanced but they kind of over did it with the Rorqual. It’s been nerfed twice and by most measures, it’s still overpowered - you really don’t need exhumers anymore, the Rorqual is a one ship mining fleet.

(Zoltan Lazar) #3

I know the history of it. A rorq is 2.5 (boosted, perfect skills) hulks. Overpowered is an understatement.

However, rorqs put way more risk on field and can’t mine in highsec so it’s not too terrible.

The SP issue I’m pointing out makes rorq mining hard to reach for newer miners without having to choose to drop exhumer training entirely.

(Piugattuk) #4

Not everything follows a progression, the Rorqual is the end all be all of a mining fleet, the elite of elite, to have the end game ship of mining should have effort of getting there, while it seems a waste of sp look at what you get, as far as yield, it’s not over powered, it’s big risk, the rewards should reflect that.

(mkint) #5

It’s supposed to be hard to reach. Especially for newer players. New players aren’t supposed to be in the biggest ships, period. I’d go the other direction… too many rorqs, should be harder to train, should be more expensive, should have highly nerfed output. Take it down to 1.5 hulks at best.

(Do Little) #6

Rorqual is a capital ship. It’s going to take you close to a year to fly it with a reasonable level of mastery. Unless you choose to speed the process up with injectors.

This is not unreasonable. most games won’t let you start at level 100 - you need to work your way up!

(Piugattuk) #7

I don’t know if I would agree with taking it down to 1.5 of a hulk, the cost of a Rorqual hull alone is about 3× the cost of a hulk, not to even mention the mods required, the drones, after all is said and done, (snobby voice) verY expensive, and the risk great, many Rorqual’s die.

(mkint) #8

Many rorqs die, but they are always worth the expense. It’s not about how many die, it’s about cost:profit. And it’s looking far more profitable than it should be.

(Zoltan Lazar) #9

This isn’t a debate on whether the rorq is too strong or not.

The thing I’m trying to point out is that rorq and exhumers have basically zero SP overlap.

(Mr Lopez) #10

I think maybe it has to do with thier role. Mining barges form the bulk of the fleet and the roqual supports them. To me they are a progression from carrier. They are caps they use drones they support the fleet. Not sure if they still do but carriers used to be able to use gang links so that’s there too. So a supercarrier of sorts that supports a mining fleet in the field directly.

(Hipqo) #11

Thats because they have almost zero in common. Barges and Exhumers rely on mining laser/strip miner tech and benefits greatly from that.
Orca and Rorq are mining boosting ships, ment to provide increased yield, increased tank and increased cargo space for a mining fleet, to help with logistics and they use drones exclusively.
You were never ment to train into an exhumer and then jump into an orca 1 week later.
The fact that they can harvest minerals like the cookie monster devours a jar of cookies, is an attempt from CCP to make them still “wanted” after removing off-grid links.

Its the same “ideology” as venture and barges not sharing any SP.

(ISD Sakimura) #12

I think you’re missing the point of what people are trying to explain to you, Porpoise, Orca and Rorqual are first and foremost Industrial Command Ships. This means that their primary purpose is to support a fleet of Mining Barges/Exhumers, and the ability to mine with relative effeciency were given to them due to the change of how boosting works to give them compensation for being put at risk.

(Zhilia Mann) #13

Not all progressions are really “meant” to be easy. Command ships are in a similar situation; they’re perfectly fine combat hulls that can be used to boost and they’re gated behind boosting skills.

(Tiddle Jr) #14

I think CCP missing the point that “excavation” drones are God dam OP, so Rorq now is nothing other that ore/ice harvesting machines?

So it’s got faulty thoughts as end level of mining career but not fleet booster.

(Zoltan Lazar) #15

I understand the history of the boats.

Rorquals are no longer “command” ships, but mining ships that happen to be able to fit links.

I understand that the skill tree is how it is due to legacy. I am questioning whether it should be how it is.

(mkint) #16

Yes, it should be how it is. The skills, anyway. The mining output needs to be nerfed. They are not mining boats, they are command boats. They should be adjusted to reflect that.

Except mining output won’t be nerfed, because CCP is too heavily influenced by certain groups. CCP has already decided who they want to win.

(Salt Foambreaker) #17

I know what the problem is, you want to fly this ship solo.

That is why you talk about it and Orca like they are a better version of hulk.

Based on that my advice to you is find someone with a fleet that has an Orca and start there.

(Piugattuk) #18

Funny thing, mining is not the best profitable career to have, missioning, PVE activities, anoms, basically everything else is faster ISK, even courier missions can be more productive as far as ISK is concerned, the Rorqual gets buffed and people are not happy, do these people know what it takes to actually fly one properly, the time if not skill injected, the costs, etc, and people are still crying to nerf it further.

I’m training cap ships on my second, a lot of time, even to the point I’ve considered getting skill injectors because of the amount of training time, but have decided against skill injectors as it would take away the effort so when you get there you have less ideals on where to go with it.

Besides, with the whining I don’t want to invest in buying skill injectors only to get nerfed, so if things change I can stop the training, buy a skill extractor and put those sp to better use.

(mkint) #19

If you train for a FOTM, you deserve to get nerfed. It’s the same as jumping into the stock market after the bubble peaked. The best investors invest in what they believe in and rip off people who invest in what’s just popular.

(Tiddle Jr) #20

If You have Rorq alt and utilize it @ Delve so all your investments come back sooner you can imagine.