WHY SO SLOW?

Communications Center General Discussion
21

EVE does allow grinding to learn skills: skill injectors.

It’s a middle ground between EVE’s unique passive progression and the grind in other games. And unlike the grind in other games which forces you to do certain activities “destroy 100 rats to improve your gun” “mine 1 million m3 of Veldspar to progress to Kernite”, EVE’s grind-based skill progression is directly connected to EVE’s large economy by making players do economic activities to earn their SP from skill injectors. Any economic activity at all, so you have access to the full sandbox and can use your creativity to earn that ISK. PvP? Mining? Industry? Or would you go creative and sell bookmark packs for ISK? Your choice how you progress your skills!

Even that is a much better grind-based system than the awful forced grind “kill 100 enemies to improve gun” in other games, but besides much more freedom it’s also completely optional as players can also simply choose not to grind at all.

And just wait.

22

I’d be fine with that if low skilled players could actually earn billions of ISK in a low skilled ship, but they can’t. It takes months to buy an Exhumer and that’s not even including the skill points one needs to properly fit it and protect it (Shields, Armor, Engineering etc…).

Of course there are large Alliances in the game that are willing to teach- if one can find and be accepted by one without going into one of the many terrible ones.

So much easier to buy millions of skill points for $20. You know what you’re getting and you’re getting what you pay for. No traps, scams, horrible alliances, etc… So yeah, I suppose a pay to win system is better than doing physical labor in game. In World of Warcraft, I have to earn my skill points. In this game, I dropped a couple of bills and stacked up my skill points. But then, I can afford it.

23

It takes a while to hit injector diminishing returns. When I was a newbie I bought many injectors with the ISK I earned from exploration, mining and PI until I hit about 50 million SP.

Nowadays new players can also earn a lot of SP from daily challenges and the AIR career missions too, I believe.

24

You think that is slow?

Try undocking with an old computer outside Jita on a Friday afternoon EU time!

25

Becoming a grandmaster at chess doesn’t happen overnight. Becoming a cutting edge academcian doesn’t happen over night. The characters we play are learning at an incredibly accelerated pace compared to real humans.

There is no real grind in this game except the ones you choose. Nothing is forced. I like that about eve, and is why I keep coming back year after year. I do not like the idea of short term players becoming top skilled but still don’t know enough about the game to compete.

There are already people in this game that get emotionally compromised when they lose a single ship to their own choices. How much worse do you think it would be if they were instantly max skilled in the game and still lost? How many cries of cheating, and how many baseless reports would flood ccp?

The proposed systems in this thread would inevitably lead to a worse experience in eve than even the most extremely emotional players already face.

Additionally, how would providing such a system to new players be balanced for older players that have already spent years of time and potentially thousands of dollars?

1 Like
26

Oh, lest i forget. I do not believe there is any such thing as “end game content” in eve. There is no end game at all.

27

Uh no, just no. Please forgive me if im confused of your idea here.

We just told that other member ( the one that keeps repeating the same 4 issues that really dont exist ) about this. Is this the “skill gap” thing again? Players should not or ever have the option or ability to catch up to a veteran in such a short time like that. I mean, is this “skill gap” thing more prominent than i thought? Ive never heard anyone talk about skill gaps until just recently.

My question is still this ( the very fact i brought up in that same thread you were in to the member that says this game isnt going in the right direction )……why are players so invested in what other have done, accomplished, and achieved instead of just playing the game and worrying about their own progression…and doing it the same way we did it. Why do newer players need a boost to catch up like that. A new account can very well progress through the ranks just the same way we did. Again, players that havent researched what theyre getting into here are the ones that get game shocked and quit. Sounds like a player thing and not a EVE thing.

Again, maybe ive misunderstood the idea. I find eve one of the last great games that actually takes a large amount of time to invest in and it seems to me that you want that boosted…..and that more players will join.

If that were ever implemented…that would probably be my last days in this game.

1 Like
28

I can return your question here: Why does it matter to you what skills others have? Let any new player catch up to you in 6 months, then you can fight or compete on equal terms. There is no reason to hold them back artificially, besides the desire to feel “better” because you started earlier.

In any case, for you leaving, imho 5 others would come. 4 more to interact with. Good thing.

It has only partially to do with a “skill gap”. The main issue is that EVE instantly becomes a totally uninteresting game for many players if they realize they either have to wait 20 years, grind 5 years like mad for money or pump thousands of RL dollars into the game to get where others already are.

And it does absolutely not matter that those “veterans” needed a decade or more to get where they are. That time-based system was okayish in the first 2-3 years and should have changed a LOOOONG time ago. CCP realized way too late that newcomers need MUCH more sources of SP to catch up faster, all those daily-SP, air-rewards, attribute-boosters, injectors etc… come like 15 years too late. And we need MUCH more of that, especially for new players, bound to activity, less to ISK. So it is less interesting for the 12th Altchar of a Vet but extremely benefital for a real new player.

29

It doesn’t matter much to me.

What matters much to me is that there’s a long persistent goal for players to stick around for, as this means the game continuously has people in space doing things as their character unlocks new playstyles.

If people have no progression left (like when they are done progressing after a year) they won’t stick around nearly as long, so I have fewer people to play this interactive MMO with. Fewer players does impact me.

Or worse, after a year they complain that they have ‘nothing new!’ and the game has to introduce a new grind every two years, like most other MMOs that have grind-based progression have to do to keep their playerbase around.

I much prefer a persistent game with one continuous progression system with long term goals over a game with short grinds which get invalidated by the next grind every once in a while to keep people in the progression and gear threadmill like a game such as WoW has.

2 Likes
30

That is a logical fallacy. A time based skill system rewards people for just waiting, being logged off, staying docked. And again: SP are no “goal”. EVE would be a very very poor game if that was a “goal”.

An activity based system would actually achieve what you seek: people in space doing things. Because THEN they get the SP. It’s pretty funny you can’t see how wrong you are. :rofl:

31

SP may not be a goal, but they’re a path to a goal. You cannot fly a T3C well without the SP to support it, you cannot ever undock a Titan without the SP.

SP is the progression system in EVE.

I’ve played many MMOs.

All of them have progression systems. Systems to slow down your progression so you don’t get to experience the entire game at once. Systems to slow you down so you have something new to log in for over the course of weeks, months, years. Systems to increase the longevity of the game so that people keep returning to this MMO for years, instead of binging it all in a couple of weeks.

All of these MMOs have progression towards skills that eventually unlock new playstyles, playstyles which can be aspirational goals. All those MMOs are the same in that regard.

The difference is how you progress.

Most other MMOs require you to grind to progress. To repeat an action again and again and again until you’re good at that one action, or kill enemies in order to ‘level up’. RuneScape for example requires you to cut down hundreds, thousands of trees in order to take on bigger trees. World of Warcraft requires you to craft all sorts of metal bars and weapons to get better at smithing higher tier goods.

This all takes time, but not just any time. Time ‘spent grinding’.

EVE also has progression, but gives it for practically free. You only need to spend time, just like the others, but you can spend this time however you want.

Do you wish to become a better miner in EVE? Just put the skills in your skill queue and they’ll be uploaded to your brain over time, matrix-style. And while that’s happening you can play the game and do what you think is fun, instead of grinding repetitive skills over and over and over again.

Sick of mining today? Go explore while your mining skills continue to train! Other games would block your mining skill progress unless you spend more time mining the low tier ores, not EVE.

If that’s what you wish to do, then stay docked. It is an option.

People can also play the game while training and have fun flying spaceships with the skills they already have.

It’s your choice to spend your time however you want and EVE gives you that freedom, unlike other MMOs. Those other MMOs require you to spend time grinding until you reach ‘end game’ and can finally play the game.

Or worse, for some of them ‘playing the game’ is entirely about grinding.

EVE allows you to play the game from the start without grinding. Just queue up some skills, then fly your spaceship out into space to do whatever you wish as you progress.

You could take pretty pictures of planets as your skills train!

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32

Why should someone brand new be on equal footing as someone that has played for 20 years?

In this game, you earn what you have. You develop skills and tactics that will never make it to the character skill queue. You develop a steady income so your wallet can weather significant losses. Character skills are only part of the equation. It takes time to develop the real life skills to compete in this game.

Rome was not built in a day.

33

This is not true.

SP is required to undock ships. You do not log in day 1 able to undock a titan unless you blow a significant amount of real money. Replace titan with any capital ship of your choosing. New players always want the biggest most expensive stuff because they do not yet know that they will still be killed by a gang of much smaller, higher skilled ships.

I have several goals that require SP, making SP a goal.

1 Like
34

Indeed, this means skill progression in EVE also is a way to ease new players gradually into more expensive ships as they learn the game.

Undocking and losing some frigates at low SP and continuing with cruisers and later battleships is a much better introduction for new players than immediately undocking the expensive ships first. Skill progression in EVE goes hand in hand with the knowledge of new players and their capabilities of earning more ISK.

2 Likes
35

Yeah and thats bad. Its one of the reasons EVE is and will stay a niche game that loses like 98% of the players who try it in the first few weeks or months. For the overwhelming majority the effort isn’t remotely worth it, even IF they like the settings, the graphics, the lore and the general PvP concept. They still leave, because they aren’t stupid. Multiple excellent gamers told me exactly that after trying EVE when I tried to convince them to play it. Way-above-average dedicated and skilled players. They lose interest the moment they realize the difference between a starter and a veteran is absurd in this game and all the little speed-up snacks are just bandaid to a broken system.

Whats the problem with a 6 months old player flying T3Cs including all weaponry- , fitting-, navigation- support skills at max if he is a real active and dedicated cruiser pilot and can afford one? What is it your business if the guy in a Legion you encounter is 6 months or 6 years in the game? What is it your busines if he is actually skilled and wins a lot with it or is making the step too early and losing a lot with it? What does it matter for your gameplay? Nothing. It’s just the ridiculous line of thought “yeah but he has to wait as I did!!111111”.

Your personal anectotal experience does matter little to me. It’s all about “I feel” and “I think”. I do play games older than EVE, still to this day. And they have more players online than EVE at any given moment. And if you would chose to begin playing one of them, you could train hard, learn fast and compete with me after a few month. On equal foot. You could even surpass me. And that is goddamn okay. TIME SPENT shouldn’t give players too much advantage over other players beyond things learned and mechanics mastered.

36

It seems like you’re missing the fact that every MMO has a progression system.

Yes, it takes time for EVE to progress your skills, but when you call this ‘bad’ you have completely lost me.

What happens with this 6 months old player when they have access to everything in the entire game at 6 months already? Will this person stick around for another 6 months?

Possibly.

Another 6 years?

Unlikely.

Is that better for the game?

I seriously doubt it.

Besides boredom of not unlocking new playstyles, another reason it’s bad is that CCPs monetization is largely based on skill progression. Not only skill point packs, but PLEX and Omega too rely on the fact that skill progression is something someone wants and are willing to pay for by being Omega for an entire year and on alts too instead of just the months they play.

What happens if someone has nothing else to gain for their character after training for a year? They won’t turn on Omega for the year, but just for the month they’re playing. After all, without SP to progress the character there’s now zero reason to have a subscription running when you’re not regularly playing EVE, unlike now.

Lost income for CCP means higher costs for the rest of us. Reduced development workforce or increased subscriptions. And fewer players too, as a lot of them get bored with no further goals to unlock after 6 months into the game.

Great idea! /s

1 Like
37

I think you may have lost the plot.

You’re insulting people that do stick around and becoming hostile over a topic you have absolutely no control over. You’re using your own anecdotal “i was told by so many people” while aggressively dismissing what real players are saying.

38

edit: double post

39

@Gerard_Amatin
I have nothing against a “progression system”. I am against a progression system that is as time-based as EVE’s is.

EVE can create new content with every expansion, by allowing for interesting politics, economic opportunities, new mechanics to learn, new meta to master. The stagnation of the last years is exactly based on too much power being concentrated in too few (veteran) hands.

As I said, we fundamentally disagree what makes players being attracted to this game. Nobody I know has the goal “yeah in 3 years I can fly a Nidhoggur!!!”. They play for the relations, for the group they are part of, for the activities they can do in the game, the battles or the plans that come true over time and their own little sandcastles they can build here. Becoming a market tycoon, a corporation leader, an alliance FC, settling in their own WH, mastering combat… And SP required in the numbers of months and years to train is nothing exciting.

40

so this is good, but spending time learning is bad?

I can see why my corp leader sometimes becomes hostile on these forums. Hypocrisy and hostility in a debate does not lead to a productive and enjoyable read.